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> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you

> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like miserable for a large group of people. the problem is that you can't meditate your way out of poverty of precarity by using "a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness". mindfulness is 'for' the propertied classes who usually collect all types of rent [1] and who aren't living paycheck to paycheck. try telling an exhausted Amazon warehouse worker to 'try' mindfulness. often it's just a bunch of gaslighting hoo-ha [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corruption-capitalism-guy-standing/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru...

texasbigdata 5y ago
Falls flat? You can MRI and observe neuroplasticity type changes based on level of meditation experience. Also, I believe it was Berkley affiliated, a monthly review of papers published on mindfulness and it's impacts often had 80+ meaningful entries on an average month: some of the use cases around therapy, around endangered populations (ptsd), disorders (agoraphobia, etc). Your general point about society might not be wrong, but the main claim that meditation does nothing is woefully incorrect. The argument in this thread seems to "late night TV sold me a shake weight, it's a bullshit, those scam artists, who needs strenght training anyways?". There's other ways.
- Brakenshire 5y ago
  Can you really see neuroplasticity in an MRI?
  - smorgusofborg 5y ago
    One measures oxygen levels by MRI while doing a task before and after the intervention to determine changes to what regions get enlisted for the task.
- andi999 5y ago
  You have neuroplastic changes if you practice guitar or golf.
whynaut 5y ago
This is silly. I discovered mindfulness early in life and it definitely does help one contend with the (mental) pains of poverty. Please at least minimally research the topic before descending to call it “gaslighting hoo-ha”.
- beckman466 5y ago
  my problem is that we are living in one of the most globally unequal times [1]. i just don’t know how relevant a hijacked practice is that misrepresents it’s origins. the way ‘mindfulness research’ filters down today is a type of gaslighting. ‘McMindfulness’ (as Ron Purser calls it - he wrote a book with that same term) is often a vanity project by CEOs/executives/school boards in the west who have too much time on their hands. they impose it on their organizations and want to be patted on the back for their 'enlightened' solution. but it does nothing to improve the alienating material conditions most of the working class face, which is the root cause of their suffering. “Mindfulness is said to be a $4bn industry. More than 60,000 books for sale on Amazon have a variant of “mindfulness” in their title, touting the benefits of Mindful Parenting, Mindful Eating, Mindful Teaching, Mindful Therapy, Mindful Leadership, Mindful Finance, a Mindful Nation, and Mindful Dog Owners, to name just a few. There is also The Mindfulness Colouring Book, part of a bestselling subgenre in itself. Besides books, there are workshops, online courses, glossy magazines, documentary films, smartphone apps, bells, cushions, bracelets, beauty products and other paraphernalia, as well as a lucrative and burgeoning conference circuit. Mindfulness programmes have made their way into schools, Wall Street and Silicon Valley corporations, law firms, and government agencies, including the US military.” [2] and: “What is the problem with people making money out of mindfulness? I guess if you’re a devout capitalist there probably isn’t a problem. But the issue is that it’s a capitalist spirituality. It’s under the big umbrella of the ‘wellness industry’. What is troubling is how easily it has become accommodated within the mainstream marketplace – I think that should give us pause. Mindfulness is so market-friendly because it appeals to this highly individualistic, entrepreneurial ethos. It’s all about ‘me’ and self-improvement. It’s thriving in a culture of narcissism. The focus is firmly on delivering a more happy self. This is a real kind of social myopia: it squarely places the responsibility of being ‘happy’ within the individual themselves, rather than taking into account all the systemic, structural aspects of society that are causing the cultural malaise that has so many people flocking to the wellness industry for answers.” Purser does offer a potential alternative: “Is it possible to reclaim mindfulness from the marketplace? Mindfulness has been hijacked by the neoliberal narrative, but I think it could be reclaimed by expanding its scope. From the very start, the Buddhist community, or sangha, was always going against the grain of the Hindu caste system in India. Buddhism was always countercultural. Mindfulness is now all about critique being turned inward, toward ourselves. We need to flip that critique back out, toward the systems and practices that are causing the problems in the first place. A collective form of mindfulness would not throw the baby out with the bathwater; it wouldn’t throw out self-care, would not disregard the therapeutic benefits of meditation — but it would expand the scope of its environment. We could sever its ties to the marketplace, to create a more collective practice that focuses on the alleviation of collective social suffering, rather than just that of the individual.” [3] lastly though, i think it’s ironic that this article mentions a “classic study [that] had skilled golfers attempt to sink putts under different experimental conditions”. so you’re saying that in a stressed out society where people in the working class get no time for themselves to reflect, academic researchers in the west are going to do research on the golf playing propertied class to look for alternatives/solutions (no matter if those solutions are either 'mindfulness' or 'mindlessness' or whatever else)? [1] https://mronline.org/2019/09/29/iphone-workers-today-are-25-times-more-exploited-than-textile-workers-in-19th-century-england/ https://mronline.org/2019/09/29/iphone-workers-today-are-25-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/14/the-mindfulness-conspiracy-capitalist-spirituality https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/14/the-min... [3] https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/books-art-and-culture/how-mindfulness-became-the-new-capitalist-spirituality/ https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/books-art-and-cultur...
jmfldn 5y ago
Speaking as a meditation practitioner, I don't think you deserve downvotes but I don't think it's zero sum either. Mindfulness should not be used to salve problems whose root cause is exploitation. I'm a proponent of being socially engaged and this actually comes from my own Buddhist inclinations. It would be somewhat inimical to the point of Buddhist practice to save oneself and ignore other's suffering, and understanding that suffering may involve looking at systems, not just the individual's response to things. Held in this sprit of interrelationship, things like meditation can help us become better activists. You will also be less likely to burn out as you strive for things and try and affect change from a healthier standpoint.

texasbigdata 5y ago

Falls flat? You can MRI and observe neuroplasticity type changes based on level of meditation experience. Also, I believe it was Berkley affiliated, a monthly review of papers published on mindfulness and it's impacts often had 80+ meaningful entries on an average month: some of the use cases around therapy, around endangered populations (ptsd), disorders (agoraphobia, etc). Your general point about society might not be wrong, but the main claim that meditation does nothing is woefully incorrect. The argument in this thread seems to "late night TV sold me a shake weight, it's a bullshit, those scam artists, who needs strenght training anyways?". There's other ways.

Brakenshire 5y ago
Can you really see neuroplasticity in an MRI?
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  One measures oxygen levels by MRI while doing a task before and after the intervention to determine changes to what regions get enlisted for the task.
andi999 5y ago
You have neuroplastic changes if you practice guitar or golf.

whynaut 5y ago

This is silly. I discovered mindfulness early in life and it definitely does help one contend with the (mental) pains of poverty. Please at least minimally research the topic before descending to call it “gaslighting hoo-ha”.

beckman466 5y ago
my problem is that we are living in one of the most globally unequal times [1]. i just don’t know how relevant a hijacked practice is that misrepresents it’s origins. the way ‘mindfulness research’ filters down today is a type of gaslighting. ‘McMindfulness’ (as Ron Purser calls it - he wrote a book with that same term) is often a vanity project by CEOs/executives/school boards in the west who have too much time on their hands. they impose it on their organizations and want to be patted on the back for their 'enlightened' solution. but it does nothing to improve the alienating material conditions most of the working class face, which is the root cause of their suffering. “Mindfulness is said to be a $4bn industry. More than 60,000 books for sale on Amazon have a variant of “mindfulness” in their title, touting the benefits of Mindful Parenting, Mindful Eating, Mindful Teaching, Mindful Therapy, Mindful Leadership, Mindful Finance, a Mindful Nation, and Mindful Dog Owners, to name just a few. There is also The Mindfulness Colouring Book, part of a bestselling subgenre in itself. Besides books, there are workshops, online courses, glossy magazines, documentary films, smartphone apps, bells, cushions, bracelets, beauty products and other paraphernalia, as well as a lucrative and burgeoning conference circuit. Mindfulness programmes have made their way into schools, Wall Street and Silicon Valley corporations, law firms, and government agencies, including the US military.” [2] and: “What is the problem with people making money out of mindfulness? I guess if you’re a devout capitalist there probably isn’t a problem. But the issue is that it’s a capitalist spirituality. It’s under the big umbrella of the ‘wellness industry’. What is troubling is how easily it has become accommodated within the mainstream marketplace – I think that should give us pause. Mindfulness is so market-friendly because it appeals to this highly individualistic, entrepreneurial ethos. It’s all about ‘me’ and self-improvement. It’s thriving in a culture of narcissism. The focus is firmly on delivering a more happy self. This is a real kind of social myopia: it squarely places the responsibility of being ‘happy’ within the individual themselves, rather than taking into account all the systemic, structural aspects of society that are causing the cultural malaise that has so many people flocking to the wellness industry for answers.” Purser does offer a potential alternative: “Is it possible to reclaim mindfulness from the marketplace? Mindfulness has been hijacked by the neoliberal narrative, but I think it could be reclaimed by expanding its scope. From the very start, the Buddhist community, or sangha, was always going against the grain of the Hindu caste system in India. Buddhism was always countercultural. Mindfulness is now all about critique being turned inward, toward ourselves. We need to flip that critique back out, toward the systems and practices that are causing the problems in the first place. A collective form of mindfulness would not throw the baby out with the bathwater; it wouldn’t throw out self-care, would not disregard the therapeutic benefits of meditation — but it would expand the scope of its environment. We could sever its ties to the marketplace, to create a more collective practice that focuses on the alleviation of collective social suffering, rather than just that of the individual.” [3] lastly though, i think it’s ironic that this article mentions a “classic study [that] had skilled golfers attempt to sink putts under different experimental conditions”. so you’re saying that in a stressed out society where people in the working class get no time for themselves to reflect, academic researchers in the west are going to do research on the golf playing propertied class to look for alternatives/solutions (no matter if those solutions are either 'mindfulness' or 'mindlessness' or whatever else)? [1] https://mronline.org/2019/09/29/iphone-workers-today-are-25-times-more-exploited-than-textile-workers-in-19th-century-england/ https://mronline.org/2019/09/29/iphone-workers-today-are-25-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/14/the-mindfulness-conspiracy-capitalist-spirituality https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/14/the-min... [3] https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/books-art-and-culture/how-mindfulness-became-the-new-capitalist-spirituality/ https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-culture/books-art-and-cultur...

jmfldn 5y ago

Speaking as a meditation practitioner, I don't think you deserve downvotes but I don't think it's zero sum either. Mindfulness should not be used to salve problems whose root cause is exploitation. I'm a proponent of being socially engaged and this actually comes from my own Buddhist inclinations. It would be somewhat inimical to the point of Buddhist practice to save oneself and ignore other's suffering, and understanding that suffering may involve looking at systems, not just the individual's response to things. Held in this sprit of interrelationship, things like meditation can help us become better activists. You will also be less likely to burn out as you strive for things and try and affect change from a healthier standpoint.