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A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a differ

A lot of these posts here on HN regarding meditation and mindfulness sound like what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'. Just a different faith. It's dressed up in the mystery of 'teachings' and 'feelings' and other vague notions. It feels like someone has set up an industry that's raking in a lot of money and all the converts perpetuate it. Perhaps they buy into it or maybe they try to justify it to not feel like they were cheated, but the way it's talked about puts me immediately on guard. I suppose that even if it doesn't work there might be a placebo effect at play.

MauranKilom 5y ago
> I suppose that even if it doesn't work there might be a placebo effect at play. I mean, it's not hard to believe (hah!) that faith, various belief systems and meditation-like exercises are beneficial for mental health. The alternative is generally "the universe is uncaring and nothing you do matters in the grand scheme of things", which is slightly less uplifting. Completely agree that any related rhetoric should put one on guard, but "the explanations they provide are wrong" isn't incompatible with "they help you live a better life". Probably not worth becoming a zealot and throwing all your money down a certain drain though.
wonnage 5y ago
TBF both meditation and yoga were ripped from religious practices and repackaged for Western consumption, and this version wins out because it helps sell pants.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  simultaneously, yoga & meditation were translated and shared in earnest with western audiences. It’s not all new age wu.
- rusk 5y ago
  > because it helps sell pants. Check the etymology pyjamas, actual pants and shampoo. Though lots was stolen from other cultures I fail to see how these examples of mimicry qualify as theft. They were asymilated because it’s nice to have night pants and clean hair, just like it’s nice to put yourself in a relaxed and untroubled state of mind.
trabant00 5y ago
New Age never died, it just transformed. That's how I see it. And you don't have to be this cynic about it, people need spirituality and will create it and sustain it even without business interests. But of course, where there's demand somebody will come up with supply to sell. I suspect myself ulterior motives in de facto influencers who promote mindfulness. But again not necessarily in a cynical way, I think most really believe and are in it for their mental comfort and social aspects just as much if not more as for the money.
- scns 5y ago
  Interesting thought. Jonathan Haidt has a chapter about spirituality in his book "The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom". I had a thought some days ago: "Maybe the rise of QAnon, and other similar outlandish ideas, stems from a spirituality vacuum. Given Nietzsches' proclamation and the continuing destruction of their own credibility by the catholic church and other religious organizations, it seems to me those people seem to try to fill their spiritual void with something. Maybe a need for shared consensus or values, which postmodern society does not supply."
dmje 5y ago
To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the hood is a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness. It's often laid at the door of Buddhism, and as a discipline, no other faith (or non-faith, whatever you choose to call it) has taken this set of "Rules for Life" and made them their own quite as much - but the contemplative method is there in pretty much every tradition. There can be a religious element to all of this, so yes, there is a "faith" angle to it, and the associated perpetuation / zealotry, but there is also a path to be trod which is secular, and holds a lot of worth and meaning. The article itself isn't terribly interesting, IMO. Yes, there are moments like Flow when doing something familiar (piano playing, coding) which are apparently "mindless" but in fact are themselves deeply mindful, in that they feel like they connect action almost directly to the subconscious. Or this at least is how it feels when I play piano - I have literally no idea how my fingers do what they do, and if I think about it too hard, things fall apart. And then - as I posted quickly elsewhere on this thread - there is the notion of mindlessness actually being set in a mindful context. It could all go a bit Rumsfeldian but I find there is some value in thinking about "mindful mindlessness" vs "mindless mindlessness". Sitting down and saying "I'm now going to look at some s*t on the web" but being aware of how that mindless rabbithole is making you feel has a different flavour to it than just doing it without focusing on the position of the self when doing the same. ps. I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-)
- beckman466 5y ago
  > Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like miserable for a large group of people. the problem is that you can't meditate your way out of poverty of precarity by using "a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness". mindfulness is 'for' the propertied classes who usually collect all types of rent [1] and who aren't living paycheck to paycheck. try telling an exhausted Amazon warehouse worker to 'try' mindfulness. often it's just a bunch of gaslighting hoo-ha [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corruption-capitalism-guy-standing/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru...
mlang23 5y ago
I fully agree. Although there are exceptions, much of the self-help industry has a similar spooky feel to me. Also, I find it hilarious that people are using apps to meditate or be "mindful". I cant quite explain it with words, but... If the first step of your journey is already in the wrong direction, forget about the rest...
- texasbigdata 5y ago
  I've done the entire stack: by myself, in class (Buddhist affiliated, weekly), app, and 10 day silent meditation retreat. Apps are fine. It's an entry point and some people might feel uncomfortable driving to a strange place to sit with strangers doing a strange activity. You know pretty quickly if works or not. Eventually the apps (maybe this has changed) are relatively limited as the cater to the 20 minutes crowd, and you might want to go further. In terms of depth, Sam Harris has an app where he comingles (IMHO) fairly advanced philosophical concepts. Maybe it's snake oil to you, but feels real and material to me. That being said, like getting enough sun or eating well or working out...it's optional and there's multiple ways to get there. No need to buy any encyclopedias if you know you're never going to open then :)
mojuba 5y ago
I use the "culture test" for this kind of things: if something is talked about a lot in one part of the world but not the other, it means there's an underlying industry that has their money in the media and the so called influencers. As for mindfulness, for example, you can almost unmistakably tell an American from a European online, by how someone talks about meditation or ignores the topic. Interestingly also, podcasts seem to be a lot more popular among the Americans compared to Europeans. In this age when we seem to live in the same shared information space, I can only explain these discrepancies by some serious marketing money but local to some country or region.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  You think Americans like podcasts more than Europeans because of American marketing? Sometimes it can just be simply cultural preferences I think. I can think of lots of American made products which succeeded much better in parts of Europe not due to a specialized marketing campaign, but just because the product was more in line with European preferences. I don’t think that the internet has homogenized us quite to the extent that regional preferences no longer exist :)
  - mojuba 5y ago
    Take the classical big American cars vs. small European cars, I think it's pretty much a fact that the love of big cars was manufactured by the auto industry in the 1950-60s and is likely supported to this day by, again, some marketing money. There's an interesting documentary about these things by Adam Curtis called "The Century of the Self", and esp. part I "Happiness Machines".
    - taneq 5y ago
      I thought the giant cars/trucks were a cobra effect style thing resulting from a loophole in emissions standards for commercial vs. passenger vehicles.
      - mojuba 5y ago
Lammy 5y ago
Personally when I see multiple belief systems arrive at the same general (if vague) conclusions I take it as a sign that they’re probably all on to something.
- superhuzza 5y ago
  Human sacrifice has been practiced by cultures in every single continent!
  - Lammy 5y ago
    Sure that sucks, but presumably the practice bought those societies something worth more to the group than the individual lives sacrificed. Maybe a false feeling of influence over the natural world was required for those societies to function instead of everyone living in fear of the next unpredictable typhoon/earthquake/flood/whatever and losing cohesiveness as individuals tried to protect their own? Anyway I’ll finish typing this comment in a couple hours ‘cause My 600-lb Life season premier is on and I never miss an episode
scns 5y ago
Interesting, my experience differs from yours. I got the recommendation of "Mind Illuminated" here on HN, a super valuable book for people into meditation IMHO, maybe the best?

MauranKilom 5y ago

> I suppose that even if it doesn't work there might be a placebo effect at play. I mean, it's not hard to believe (hah!) that faith, various belief systems and meditation-like exercises are beneficial for mental health. The alternative is generally "the universe is uncaring and nothing you do matters in the grand scheme of things", which is slightly less uplifting. Completely agree that any related rhetoric should put one on guard, but "the explanations they provide are wrong" isn't incompatible with "they help you live a better life". Probably not worth becoming a zealot and throwing all your money down a certain drain though.

wonnage 5y ago

TBF both meditation and yoga were ripped from religious practices and repackaged for Western consumption, and this version wins out because it helps sell pants.

jazzyjackson 5y ago
simultaneously, yoga & meditation were translated and shared in earnest with western audiences. It’s not all new age wu.
rusk 5y ago
> because it helps sell pants. Check the etymology pyjamas, actual pants and shampoo. Though lots was stolen from other cultures I fail to see how these examples of mimicry qualify as theft. They were asymilated because it’s nice to have night pants and clean hair, just like it’s nice to put yourself in a relaxed and untroubled state of mind.

trabant00 5y ago

New Age never died, it just transformed. That's how I see it. And you don't have to be this cynic about it, people need spirituality and will create it and sustain it even without business interests. But of course, where there's demand somebody will come up with supply to sell. I suspect myself ulterior motives in de facto influencers who promote mindfulness. But again not necessarily in a cynical way, I think most really believe and are in it for their mental comfort and social aspects just as much if not more as for the money.

scns 5y ago
Interesting thought. Jonathan Haidt has a chapter about spirituality in his book "The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom". I had a thought some days ago: "Maybe the rise of QAnon, and other similar outlandish ideas, stems from a spirituality vacuum. Given Nietzsches' proclamation and the continuing destruction of their own credibility by the catholic church and other religious organizations, it seems to me those people seem to try to fill their spiritual void with something. Maybe a need for shared consensus or values, which postmodern society does not supply."

dmje 5y ago

To be fair, there's a multi-layered thing going on here. Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" nowadays, and it's terribly fashionable right now, and with fashion comes The Horde, and with that comes The Charlatans (not the band) - and in the modern world this is all now followed by The Influencers and adverts and apps and a whole plastic money-fuelled nothingness that accompanies the modern world. But. Under the hood is a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness. It's often laid at the door of Buddhism, and as a discipline, no other faith (or non-faith, whatever you choose to call it) has taken this set of "Rules for Life" and made them their own quite as much - but the contemplative method is there in pretty much every tradition. There can be a religious element to all of this, so yes, there is a "faith" angle to it, and the associated perpetuation / zealotry, but there is also a path to be trod which is secular, and holds a lot of worth and meaning. The article itself isn't terribly interesting, IMO. Yes, there are moments like Flow when doing something familiar (piano playing, coding) which are apparently "mindless" but in fact are themselves deeply mindful, in that they feel like they connect action almost directly to the subconscious. Or this at least is how it feels when I play piano - I have literally no idea how my fingers do what they do, and if I think about it too hard, things fall apart. And then - as I posted quickly elsewhere on this thread - there is the notion of mindlessness actually being set in a mindful context. It could all go a bit Rumsfeldian but I find there is some value in thinking about "mindful mindlessness" vs "mindless mindlessness". Sitting down and saying "I'm now going to look at some s*t on the web" but being aware of how that mindless rabbithole is making you feel has a different flavour to it than just doing it without focusing on the position of the self when doing the same. ps. I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-)

beckman466 5y ago
> Yes, there is a mindfulness "industry" > But. > I quite like "vague notions" like "feelings", myself :-) it's funny how what you write is exactly "what you would hear from an 'intergalactic encyclopedia salesman'", to quote OP. thanks for proving OP's point. i think the reason mindfulness falls flat is because it ignores the material reality of the working class in our profit-seeking economic system. it makes like miserable for a large group of people. the problem is that you can't meditate your way out of poverty of precarity by using "a centuries-old tradition of self-investigation and awareness". mindfulness is 'for' the propertied classes who usually collect all types of rent [1] and who aren't living paycheck to paycheck. try telling an exhausted Amazon warehouse worker to 'try' mindfulness. often it's just a bunch of gaslighting hoo-ha [1] https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corruption-capitalism-guy-standing/ https://www.resilience.org/stories/2017-08-03/book-day-corru...

mlang23 5y ago

I fully agree. Although there are exceptions, much of the self-help industry has a similar spooky feel to me. Also, I find it hilarious that people are using apps to meditate or be "mindful". I cant quite explain it with words, but... If the first step of your journey is already in the wrong direction, forget about the rest...

texasbigdata 5y ago
I've done the entire stack: by myself, in class (Buddhist affiliated, weekly), app, and 10 day silent meditation retreat. Apps are fine. It's an entry point and some people might feel uncomfortable driving to a strange place to sit with strangers doing a strange activity. You know pretty quickly if works or not. Eventually the apps (maybe this has changed) are relatively limited as the cater to the 20 minutes crowd, and you might want to go further. In terms of depth, Sam Harris has an app where he comingles (IMHO) fairly advanced philosophical concepts. Maybe it's snake oil to you, but feels real and material to me. That being said, like getting enough sun or eating well or working out...it's optional and there's multiple ways to get there. No need to buy any encyclopedias if you know you're never going to open then :)

mojuba 5y ago

I use the "culture test" for this kind of things: if something is talked about a lot in one part of the world but not the other, it means there's an underlying industry that has their money in the media and the so called influencers. As for mindfulness, for example, you can almost unmistakably tell an American from a European online, by how someone talks about meditation or ignores the topic. Interestingly also, podcasts seem to be a lot more popular among the Americans compared to Europeans. In this age when we seem to live in the same shared information space, I can only explain these discrepancies by some serious marketing money but local to some country or region.

honkdaddy 5y ago
You think Americans like podcasts more than Europeans because of American marketing? Sometimes it can just be simply cultural preferences I think. I can think of lots of American made products which succeeded much better in parts of Europe not due to a specialized marketing campaign, but just because the product was more in line with European preferences. I don’t think that the internet has homogenized us quite to the extent that regional preferences no longer exist :)
- mojuba 5y ago
  Take the classical big American cars vs. small European cars, I think it's pretty much a fact that the love of big cars was manufactured by the auto industry in the 1950-60s and is likely supported to this day by, again, some marketing money. There's an interesting documentary about these things by Adam Curtis called "The Century of the Self", and esp. part I "Happiness Machines".
  - taneq 5y ago
    I thought the giant cars/trucks were a cobra effect style thing resulting from a loophole in emissions standards for commercial vs. passenger vehicles.
    - mojuba 5y ago

Lammy 5y ago

Personally when I see multiple belief systems arrive at the same general (if vague) conclusions I take it as a sign that they’re probably all on to something.

superhuzza 5y ago
Human sacrifice has been practiced by cultures in every single continent!
- Lammy 5y ago
  Sure that sucks, but presumably the practice bought those societies something worth more to the group than the individual lives sacrificed. Maybe a false feeling of influence over the natural world was required for those societies to function instead of everyone living in fear of the next unpredictable typhoon/earthquake/flood/whatever and losing cohesiveness as individuals tried to protect their own? Anyway I’ll finish typing this comment in a couple hours ‘cause My 600-lb Life season premier is on and I never miss an episode

scns 5y ago

Interesting, my experience differs from yours. I got the recommendation of "Mind Illuminated" here on HN, a super valuable book for people into meditation IMHO, maybe the best?