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> Facebook Messenger, Hangouts, Google Chat, and above all SMS / iMessage. Whatsapp by all accounts is the most popular (as much as I personally detest it). Gi

> Facebook Messenger, Hangouts, Google Chat, and above all SMS / iMessage. Whatsapp by all accounts is the most popular (as much as I personally detest it). Given you’re calling out WhatsApp specifically as a service you detest I’m going to assume you rank it last of all these options. Why is this? WhatsApp is E2EE, has a simple UI (at least IMO) and doesn’t store messages centrally. If I claimed to be a privacy nut I’d put WA above any of these.

ranguna 5y ago
Because past experience matters and Facebook has failed quite a few times on the privacy spectrum
- pope_meat 5y ago
  I'm starting to suspect fb has people here to downvote critique. Or the vast majority have drank the Kool aid. I really hope it's the former, instead of the latter. Whatsapp is a non starter for me because the company that owns and operates it is not trust worthy. Very profitable, and probably making some of the people here great returns on their investments...but it's not trust worthy, nor ethical.
- cranekam 5y ago
  Right. I’m just surprised that WhatsApp was just called out as worse than Facebook messenger. Both are owned by the same company but one of them is technically much more secure. (Yes, FB has the keys to the kingdom and can technically do whatever they want, but it’s much easier to snoop on messenger than WA.)
  - ranguna 5y ago
    There are some features that are better on other messaging providers compared to WhatsApp or signal, it's just that sometimes you need to choose what you value more. Shiny stickers and broader user market vs privacy. Almost constant uptime due to being owned by a multi million/billion dollar company vs a group that mainly runs on donations. Etc etc
NikolaNovak 5y ago
Usability; and I hope I indicated clearly that it was a personal detestation over an objective claim :) for what little it's worth: Facebook Messenger, Hangouts, Google Chat, let alone messengers of yore like ICQ, MSN, AIM, etc all allow me to create a userID & password on computer and use them from any device of my choosing, as well as change/transfer/obsolete devices seamlessly. Whatsapp is bound to my phone number and device, and its experience with multi-device is.... actively hostile. My preference is to not type messages on a 1.5" keyboard, but rather on any number of ergonomic keyboards and devices I use around the house and work. Whatsapp is simply prohibitive for my usage, and for positively no actual (as opposed to theoretical/principled) benefit whatsoever. I've pulled what little hair I have trying to use it, but the 27th time it locked my account for using too many devices (Oh noes! I have a phone, tablet AND a laptop? Crazy me:), I gave up. (privacy wise, also, my phone number is one of the more private and static pieces of identifying information I own; I guard it carefully and I have no idea why I need to expose it to everybody I want to communicate with, as opposed to anonymous and disposable userID or even email). I did not mean to turn this into anti-whatsapp rant though; Many other E2EE-focus services are similar. Whatsapp just happens to be wildly popular and, for my use-case, completely and actively impractical :-/

ranguna 5y ago

Because past experience matters and Facebook has failed quite a few times on the privacy spectrum

pope_meat 5y ago
I'm starting to suspect fb has people here to downvote critique. Or the vast majority have drank the Kool aid. I really hope it's the former, instead of the latter. Whatsapp is a non starter for me because the company that owns and operates it is not trust worthy. Very profitable, and probably making some of the people here great returns on their investments...but it's not trust worthy, nor ethical.
cranekam 5y ago
Right. I’m just surprised that WhatsApp was just called out as worse than Facebook messenger. Both are owned by the same company but one of them is technically much more secure. (Yes, FB has the keys to the kingdom and can technically do whatever they want, but it’s much easier to snoop on messenger than WA.)
- ranguna 5y ago
  There are some features that are better on other messaging providers compared to WhatsApp or signal, it's just that sometimes you need to choose what you value more. Shiny stickers and broader user market vs privacy. Almost constant uptime due to being owned by a multi million/billion dollar company vs a group that mainly runs on donations. Etc etc

NikolaNovak 5y ago

Usability; and I hope I indicated clearly that it was a personal detestation over an objective claim :) for what little it's worth: Facebook Messenger, Hangouts, Google Chat, let alone messengers of yore like ICQ, MSN, AIM, etc all allow me to create a userID & password on computer and use them from any device of my choosing, as well as change/transfer/obsolete devices seamlessly. Whatsapp is bound to my phone number and device, and its experience with multi-device is.... actively hostile. My preference is to not type messages on a 1.5" keyboard, but rather on any number of ergonomic keyboards and devices I use around the house and work. Whatsapp is simply prohibitive for my usage, and for positively no actual (as opposed to theoretical/principled) benefit whatsoever. I've pulled what little hair I have trying to use it, but the 27th time it locked my account for using too many devices (Oh noes! I have a phone, tablet AND a laptop? Crazy me:), I gave up. (privacy wise, also, my phone number is one of the more private and static pieces of identifying information I own; I guard it carefully and I have no idea why I need to expose it to everybody I want to communicate with, as opposed to anonymous and disposable userID or even email). I did not mean to turn this into anti-whatsapp rant though; Many other E2EE-focus services are similar. Whatsapp just happens to be wildly popular and, for my use-case, completely and actively impractical :-/