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Concentration (sustained attention) has many stages. For example, at the lowest stage and in an unpracticed individual, one must fight to keep attention placed

Concentration (sustained attention) has many stages. For example, at the lowest stage and in an unpracticed individual, one must fight to keep attention placed on an object. Someone who is well practised will either pass over that stage immediately upon beginning to concentrate or they will not be in that stage for long. As concentration sustains it becomes easier to the point that no will is required for it to remain, it becomes automatic and arises as if you are being concentrated by the object. Sportsmen call this flow. Are these studies comparing this difference? Do they first ascertain the level of skill in concentration that the subject has? Are they going to go against what all sportsmen who've experienced flow have to say on the matter? Personally, I find much of the science world's attempts to look at mindfulness and/or meditation as incredibly clumsy, and frankly, arrogant. Just because people who have written extensively on the subject were not scientists is no reason to dispense with their insights (ha).

mtalantikite 5y ago
Yeah I feel like equating sati with just attention or concentration like is done in so many of these studies misunderstands the teaching. Tilopa’s advice might help them understand this sort of meditative “concentration” a little more: don’t recall, don’t imagine, don’t think, don’t examine, don’t control, rest. A high level professional athlete is probably doing something along those lines in relation to their sport, so asking them to examine and control is of course going to knock them out of it. There is a reason why it’s called samma-sati.
- brigandish 5y ago
  I agree with everything you've written except "misunderstands the teaching", I think they've ignored the teaching and instead decided to investigate what they think the teaching is without having researched the teaching. Misunderstanding would be understandable and easier to forgive. Preconception certainly is a terrible affliction!
agumonkey 5y ago
Apology for the slight detour, I wonder if pianists/drummers have a leg up on this. The multiple parallel layers (hands/melody/chords for piano, polyrythms mapped over all limbs). This forces your brain to handle many things at once yet focus on a single whole. In my small experience it was highly meditative (and very deeply stimulating for the brain).
- brigandish 5y ago
  Don't apologise, I've wondered the same thing many times! One way of categorising meditation is single pointed (basically, one object of attention) and many pointed (many objects, usually contemplative and attempted after skill in single pointed techniques, though not always - vipassana as an example), though one can become the other. I'm not sure that something with many things to concentrate on will help foster levels of concentration (jhana) better. <y feeling is they probably just help keep it interesting, which is an underrated ingredient - even things we like and enjoy can feel like work if we feel we should do it, or have to do it, or we get no variety. Music provides variety, energy and spoteneity in abundance. It's also very distracting too. You can't have it all :) Personally, I've found learning scales or some particular run of notes to be similar to single pointed meditation but I notice changes in mental state more with a traditional technique, my goals are slightly different.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    > even things we like and enjoy can feel like work if we feel we should do it, or have to do it, or we get no variety This is what modern society produces. I often try to turn chores into joy, or games. When you think about it, the difference in labour and fun is small.. Doing 200 pushups or 200 wipes on the floor, both can be nice and beneficial. People should frame stuff this way. The issue is that social structures make that difficult, you can rarely tell your boss "hmm i'm gonna do it this way because I feel better" your 'self' has no place in a work group so you become a slave and suffer. A lot of people consider music like a semi transe. Drums are special because of the apparent simplicity in gesture and sound, but even broken scales can be deeply infatuating.

mtalantikite 5y ago

Yeah I feel like equating sati with just attention or concentration like is done in so many of these studies misunderstands the teaching. Tilopa’s advice might help them understand this sort of meditative “concentration” a little more: don’t recall, don’t imagine, don’t think, don’t examine, don’t control, rest. A high level professional athlete is probably doing something along those lines in relation to their sport, so asking them to examine and control is of course going to knock them out of it. There is a reason why it’s called samma-sati.

brigandish 5y ago
I agree with everything you've written except "misunderstands the teaching", I think they've ignored the teaching and instead decided to investigate what they think the teaching is without having researched the teaching. Misunderstanding would be understandable and easier to forgive. Preconception certainly is a terrible affliction!

agumonkey 5y ago

Apology for the slight detour, I wonder if pianists/drummers have a leg up on this. The multiple parallel layers (hands/melody/chords for piano, polyrythms mapped over all limbs). This forces your brain to handle many things at once yet focus on a single whole. In my small experience it was highly meditative (and very deeply stimulating for the brain).

brigandish 5y ago
Don't apologise, I've wondered the same thing many times! One way of categorising meditation is single pointed (basically, one object of attention) and many pointed (many objects, usually contemplative and attempted after skill in single pointed techniques, though not always - vipassana as an example), though one can become the other. I'm not sure that something with many things to concentrate on will help foster levels of concentration (jhana) better. <y feeling is they probably just help keep it interesting, which is an underrated ingredient - even things we like and enjoy can feel like work if we feel we should do it, or have to do it, or we get no variety. Music provides variety, energy and spoteneity in abundance. It's also very distracting too. You can't have it all :) Personally, I've found learning scales or some particular run of notes to be similar to single pointed meditation but I notice changes in mental state more with a traditional technique, my goals are slightly different.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  > even things we like and enjoy can feel like work if we feel we should do it, or have to do it, or we get no variety This is what modern society produces. I often try to turn chores into joy, or games. When you think about it, the difference in labour and fun is small.. Doing 200 pushups or 200 wipes on the floor, both can be nice and beneficial. People should frame stuff this way. The issue is that social structures make that difficult, you can rarely tell your boss "hmm i'm gonna do it this way because I feel better" your 'self' has no place in a work group so you become a slave and suffer. A lot of people consider music like a semi transe. Drums are special because of the apparent simplicity in gesture and sound, but even broken scales can be deeply infatuating.