7 ms·

Key paragraphs: >> "Ministers bowed to business pressure on Saturday and announced they would issue temporary visas to 5,000 foreign heavy goods vehicle driver

by mkr-hn 5y ago

Key paragraphs: >> "Ministers bowed to business pressure on Saturday and announced they would issue temporary visas to 5,000 foreign heavy goods vehicle drivers to help tackle major labour shortages in the logistics industry." >> "The government move came after panic buying followed BP saying last week that as many as 100 service stations had been disrupted and several forecourts closed because of a shortage of tanker drivers." >> "Madderson welcomed the government’s plans to ease visa requirements for foreign workers but said the biggest problems were at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, a branch of the Department for Transport, where there was a significant backlog of lorry driver applicants looking to start training. " It turns out making your economy dependent on migrant workers then shutting them out with no preparation is bad policy.

kerrsclyde 5y ago
Driving a tanker carrying fuel requires additional qualifications over your standard HGV licence so the pool is likely even smaller - this seems to have been glossed over by ministers in the press over the weekend.
- bserge 5y ago
  They can ignore that as needed. Just like import checks.
t0mas88 5y ago
> issue temporary visas to 5,000 foreign heavy goods vehicle drivers Why on earth would these foreign drivers that could easily work on a permanent basis in Europe come to the UK on a temporary visum? Or are they now also going to pay them a lot more than other places? I'm which case... Kind of ironic that this whole brexit thing was started over keeping immigrants out, not about begging them to please come and save you for a lot more money?
- hktntbvuvu 5y ago
  There is talk about 50k salaries, which is in programmer salary territory.
  - drawfloat 5y ago
    That’s more than a lot of UK developers.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    I vaguely rememberering that there are half a million people in the UK with HGV licenses. But only half of them are working as drivers. So it really isn't likely to be a supply problem. It seems to me that the demand is simply not consistent enough to generate the required supply. Or to put it another way, the market is working as markets do. If people really want HGV drivers then they will have to offer more, and not just money but better working conditions and more secure employment.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    The problem is that, it's for a few months only. So it's more like 17K opportunity before tax. Who exactly will leave current job that pays, let's say 25K/year, to make one-off 17K? People who make that amount of money can't really afford having a sabbatical.
    - hktntbvuvu 5y ago
      I think the idea is to attract back foreign drivers, for example from Eastern Europe who left because of Brexit/Pandemic
      - mrtksn 5y ago
        Yes but Eastern Europeans also don’t do this as a hobby, they all have regular jobs. Why would they leave a regular job for one-off short term opportunity? The money is better, sure, but not good enough to account for the extra trouble and potential underemployment once the visa expires. It used to make sense for Eastern Europeans to seek a better career in the UK but a 3 months is not a career.
mrtksn 5y ago
It would be interesting to see who will answer the call. This is a few months visa, which means come to UK, supply us with goods, make some money and fuck off. That kind of opportunities are very nice for the youth where you go to some foreign country in the summer work a bit party a lot and tell the experience to everyone for years. For a grown up to come to UK for a few moths of a skilled job doesn't add up that easily. Truck driving licenses are expensive and are for mature people since they are trusted with very expensive and powerful machinery. Who does exactly goes to a foreign country to do that job? It must be someone who is retired and does it every now and then to make some extra buck or someone who is unhireable on a regular job. What the people are supposed to do when the 3 months of visa expire? Go back and hunt for a job that they just left? It doesn't make sense unless the money is extremely good and in the UK the money is not good, it's not like the US. Earlier today I stumbled upon a blog post of a EU truck driver on the reasons why the EU people left UK: https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-there-is-shortage-of-drivers-in-the-uk/ https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-there-is-shortage-of-drive... After the Brexit referandum in 2016, EU nationals had the privilege to keep their right indefinitely, with almost no paperwork and cost up until the beginning of 2021 and many did not take the opportunity. If they recruit people from outside of Europe, how do they plan to make them leave the UK? EU is rich, even Easter Europe is a fine place and nobody will choose to work illegally in the UK(if they wanted that, they could have stayed legally). People from poorer places will want to stay, that's why you have the Calais issue. People from richer places cannot be paid good enough to come to the UK.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Problem with retired people is the mandatory health checks and that licenses for commercial transport requires refresh every few years with extra training. So if you aren't in industry you lose it in a few years.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Right, if people are not actively doing it they won't be able to start doing it right away and those who are doing it hardly have any reason to leave and take the temporary opportunity.
iamben 5y ago
Shapps (our transport secretary) is saying this isn't Brexit related. He told BBC Today: “Not only are there very large and even larger shortages in other EU countries like Poland and Germany, which clearly can’t be to do with Brexit, but actually because of Brexit I’ve been able to change the law and alter the way our driving tests operate in a way I could not have done if we were still part of the EU." I'm completely in agreement with you though. Without Brexit I don't think it would be anywhere near this bad (however utterly irrational it may be).
- neximo64 5y ago
  There are driver shortages in Australia too, where people over 70 who've retired have to come back to work. I don't really care for Brexit but its interesting how there have also been shortages of items at supermarkets in places that the same logic can't be applied. None for fuel though. But it's not always as clean cut.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  It does provide an interesting A/B opportunity. You have all these countries in one economic union, and one that was in it for a long time, and now there's an opportunity to compare the depth of crises. We're also having trouble finding drivers here in the US, but we're also ground zero for the app delivery gig thing and that's probably giving the worse-paid truck drivers options. I know there's been an explosion of app delivery services across Europe. Could that be a contributing factor?
- rob74 5y ago
  Of course there are shortages in jobs with bad working conditions and low pay in other EU countries too - but, due to the continued access to workers from poor EU countries who are willing to do these jobs, these shortages are not nearly as bad as in the UK. So of course it's Brexit related!
  - fmajid 5y ago
    Working conditions are way better for drivers in the EU. They have rest stops with restrooms, for instance, so they don’t have to do their business on the roadside. The UK government is just showing how out of touch and incompetent it is if it thinks there will be any takers. A bigger problem is the horrendous backlog in licence applications at DVLA that means new drivers cannot start working. Finally, the IR35 tax treatment of many drivers means they would actually lose money by driving.
jl6 5y ago
Bad policy for who though? A lot of blue-collar workers are finding themselves in demand, with higher pay either here already or coming soon.
- azernik 5y ago
  Bad policy for all of the people who need petrol to drive; for all of the people who work at the (temporarily, thankfully) closed stations; and for anyone who works at businesses that rely on regular petrol supplies. Basic functioning of the economy and of supply chains is an objective public good.
  - jl6 5y ago
    My point is that there are winners and losers here. It sure would have been convenient for the rest of the UK if they had carried on importing cheap labor, but that wasn’t what the Brexit-voting working classes were thinking about.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  The lack of preparation for the demand in licensing and training for those workers is part of the bad policy.
danjac 5y ago
The UK cabinet, comprised of former journalists, media "personalities" and PR industry hacks, only thinks in terms of the 24 hour news cycle: how to deflect blame, rile up their base, or throw dead cats. What they are fundamentally incapable of doing is thinking and planning ahead beyond that cycle. Which is fine, so far, as they are greatly aided by their friends in the media, Britain's antiquated "democratic" FPTP system, and by the deep unblinking gullibility of their core voter.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
> It turns out making your economy dependent on migrant workers then shutting them out with no preparation is bad policy. What's been even worse policy is to have closed down so many train lines over the years, so now all of our roads are full of lorries 24/7. Thanks to the Beeching cuts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts The solution is not to import cheap labour to drive trucks, but to rebuild our railways, and use them for freight (feel free to use cheap foreign labour in this case). Fortunately the current government has agreed upon such things as: https://www.theplanner.co.uk/news/northampton-rail-freight-nsip-approved https://www.theplanner.co.uk/news/northampton-rail-freight-n... HS2 is also still in the works (but scaled back).

by mkr-hn 5y ago

kerrsclyde 5y ago

Driving a tanker carrying fuel requires additional qualifications over your standard HGV licence so the pool is likely even smaller - this seems to have been glossed over by ministers in the press over the weekend.

bserge 5y ago
They can ignore that as needed. Just like import checks.

t0mas88 5y ago

> issue temporary visas to 5,000 foreign heavy goods vehicle drivers Why on earth would these foreign drivers that could easily work on a permanent basis in Europe come to the UK on a temporary visum? Or are they now also going to pay them a lot more than other places? I'm which case... Kind of ironic that this whole brexit thing was started over keeping immigrants out, not about begging them to please come and save you for a lot more money?

hktntbvuvu 5y ago
There is talk about 50k salaries, which is in programmer salary territory.
- drawfloat 5y ago
  That’s more than a lot of UK developers.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  I vaguely rememberering that there are half a million people in the UK with HGV licenses. But only half of them are working as drivers. So it really isn't likely to be a supply problem. It seems to me that the demand is simply not consistent enough to generate the required supply. Or to put it another way, the market is working as markets do. If people really want HGV drivers then they will have to offer more, and not just money but better working conditions and more secure employment.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  The problem is that, it's for a few months only. So it's more like 17K opportunity before tax. Who exactly will leave current job that pays, let's say 25K/year, to make one-off 17K? People who make that amount of money can't really afford having a sabbatical.
  - hktntbvuvu 5y ago
    I think the idea is to attract back foreign drivers, for example from Eastern Europe who left because of Brexit/Pandemic
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      Yes but Eastern Europeans also don’t do this as a hobby, they all have regular jobs. Why would they leave a regular job for one-off short term opportunity? The money is better, sure, but not good enough to account for the extra trouble and potential underemployment once the visa expires. It used to make sense for Eastern Europeans to seek a better career in the UK but a 3 months is not a career.

mrtksn 5y ago

It would be interesting to see who will answer the call. This is a few months visa, which means come to UK, supply us with goods, make some money and fuck off. That kind of opportunities are very nice for the youth where you go to some foreign country in the summer work a bit party a lot and tell the experience to everyone for years. For a grown up to come to UK for a few moths of a skilled job doesn't add up that easily. Truck driving licenses are expensive and are for mature people since they are trusted with very expensive and powerful machinery. Who does exactly goes to a foreign country to do that job? It must be someone who is retired and does it every now and then to make some extra buck or someone who is unhireable on a regular job. What the people are supposed to do when the 3 months of visa expire? Go back and hunt for a job that they just left? It doesn't make sense unless the money is extremely good and in the UK the money is not good, it's not like the US. Earlier today I stumbled upon a blog post of a EU truck driver on the reasons why the EU people left UK: https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-there-is-shortage-of-drivers-in-the-uk/ https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-there-is-shortage-of-drive... After the Brexit referandum in 2016, EU nationals had the privilege to keep their right indefinitely, with almost no paperwork and cost up until the beginning of 2021 and many did not take the opportunity. If they recruit people from outside of Europe, how do they plan to make them leave the UK? EU is rich, even Easter Europe is a fine place and nobody will choose to work illegally in the UK(if they wanted that, they could have stayed legally). People from poorer places will want to stay, that's why you have the Calais issue. People from richer places cannot be paid good enough to come to the UK.

Ekaros 5y ago
Problem with retired people is the mandatory health checks and that licenses for commercial transport requires refresh every few years with extra training. So if you aren't in industry you lose it in a few years.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Right, if people are not actively doing it they won't be able to start doing it right away and those who are doing it hardly have any reason to leave and take the temporary opportunity.

iamben 5y ago

Shapps (our transport secretary) is saying this isn't Brexit related. He told BBC Today: “Not only are there very large and even larger shortages in other EU countries like Poland and Germany, which clearly can’t be to do with Brexit, but actually because of Brexit I’ve been able to change the law and alter the way our driving tests operate in a way I could not have done if we were still part of the EU." I'm completely in agreement with you though. Without Brexit I don't think it would be anywhere near this bad (however utterly irrational it may be).

neximo64 5y ago
There are driver shortages in Australia too, where people over 70 who've retired have to come back to work. I don't really care for Brexit but its interesting how there have also been shortages of items at supermarkets in places that the same logic can't be applied. None for fuel though. But it's not always as clean cut.
mkr-hn 5y ago
It does provide an interesting A/B opportunity. You have all these countries in one economic union, and one that was in it for a long time, and now there's an opportunity to compare the depth of crises. We're also having trouble finding drivers here in the US, but we're also ground zero for the app delivery gig thing and that's probably giving the worse-paid truck drivers options. I know there's been an explosion of app delivery services across Europe. Could that be a contributing factor?
rob74 5y ago
Of course there are shortages in jobs with bad working conditions and low pay in other EU countries too - but, due to the continued access to workers from poor EU countries who are willing to do these jobs, these shortages are not nearly as bad as in the UK. So of course it's Brexit related!
- fmajid 5y ago
  Working conditions are way better for drivers in the EU. They have rest stops with restrooms, for instance, so they don’t have to do their business on the roadside. The UK government is just showing how out of touch and incompetent it is if it thinks there will be any takers. A bigger problem is the horrendous backlog in licence applications at DVLA that means new drivers cannot start working. Finally, the IR35 tax treatment of many drivers means they would actually lose money by driving.

jl6 5y ago

Bad policy for who though? A lot of blue-collar workers are finding themselves in demand, with higher pay either here already or coming soon.

azernik 5y ago
Bad policy for all of the people who need petrol to drive; for all of the people who work at the (temporarily, thankfully) closed stations; and for anyone who works at businesses that rely on regular petrol supplies. Basic functioning of the economy and of supply chains is an objective public good.
- jl6 5y ago
  My point is that there are winners and losers here. It sure would have been convenient for the rest of the UK if they had carried on importing cheap labor, but that wasn’t what the Brexit-voting working classes were thinking about.
mkr-hn 5y ago
The lack of preparation for the demand in licensing and training for those workers is part of the bad policy.

danjac 5y ago

The UK cabinet, comprised of former journalists, media "personalities" and PR industry hacks, only thinks in terms of the 24 hour news cycle: how to deflect blame, rile up their base, or throw dead cats. What they are fundamentally incapable of doing is thinking and planning ahead beyond that cycle. Which is fine, so far, as they are greatly aided by their friends in the media, Britain's antiquated "democratic" FPTP system, and by the deep unblinking gullibility of their core voter.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

> It turns out making your economy dependent on migrant workers then shutting them out with no preparation is bad policy. What's been even worse policy is to have closed down so many train lines over the years, so now all of our roads are full of lorries 24/7. Thanks to the Beeching cuts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts The solution is not to import cheap labour to drive trucks, but to rebuild our railways, and use them for freight (feel free to use cheap foreign labour in this case). Fortunately the current government has agreed upon such things as: https://www.theplanner.co.uk/news/northampton-rail-freight-nsip-approved https://www.theplanner.co.uk/news/northampton-rail-freight-n... HS2 is also still in the works (but scaled back).