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I 100% agree with everything you're saying. However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat

I 100% agree with everything you're saying. However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. In this fight, while the US was far more evil than anyone cared to admit at the time, and the USSR far less than the US propaganda would have you believe, RELATIVELY speaking one side did offer more freedom, liberty, and prosperity than the other. And the primary counterargument from the Communists was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism This remains true today with China. CPC apologists are all too happy to point out (factually correct) gaps in US integrity and freedom. But in the grand scheme of things, relatively speaking, for all it's flaws, "The West" still has due process, doesn't ban religious expression, and doesn't put millions of citizens into force re-education camps. The most recent Chinese return of the 2 incarcerated Canadians in return for the Huawei executive is the most blatant current example that China will do absolutely whatever it wants. Whereas even in this news story - where you have government agents freely discussing assassinating Assange - there are others working against them, Lawyers using legal guidelines to flummox the plan, and ultimately it doesn't go forward. For all of the US's evils, Russia and China would not have hesitated to kidnap or execute Assange in identical circumstances if he was hiding in an Ecuadorian embassy on their soil. He would have been disappeared a decade ago.

simorley 5y ago
> However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. Nuclear war? And in that 50/80 years, only one side has ever nuked a city full of civilians. Twice. > This remains true today with China. CPC apologists are all too happy to point out (factually correct) gaps in US integrity and freedom. "CPC apologists". Did we have any integrity and freedom when we were colonizing china? You do realize that we colonized china for nearly 100 years. It was the "CPC" and the communists who liberated china. You do realize that right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_Patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_Patrol How anyone can claim a nation brutally ( and partly motivated by racism ) colonizing another nation is the one with integrity and freedom is beyond me. > And the primary counterargument from the Communists was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "Whataboutism" is a well-worn social media propaganda term used a few years ago. Nobody uses it anymore because it exposes the person who uses it. > The most recent Chinese return of the 2 incarcerated Canadians in return for the Huawei executive is the most blatant current example that China will do absolutely whatever it wants. China arrested two canadian spies/operatives in retaliation for canada kidnapping one of their spies/operatives? Shocking. What do you expect. It's statecraft. Tit for tat. Like when we kick out chinese or russian diplomats. They do the same. Or are you still pretending china arbitrarily locked up two innocent canadian tourists? Strangely you aren't worked up about canada kidnapping a chinese national. Kidnapping chinese is fine but kidnapping canadians is wrong? > For all of the US's evils, Russia and China would not have hesitated to kidnap or execute Assange in identical circumstances if he was hiding in an Ecuadorian embassy on their soil. He would have been disappeared a decade ago. But two canadian spies were arrested and not "disappeared". Using your logic, china should be shipping two body bags right? China hasn't disappeared the dalai lama. How many chinese traitors hiding all over the west has china "disappeared"? Absolutely none. You are just stating the same propaganda we've heard over and over again. It gets stale and boring. China bad. Russia bad. US good. Right. At least you didn't bring up anything about genocide. At the end of the day, everyone has done good and everyone has done bad. But one has done far more evil than good while hypocritely pretending to be the world's beacon of good. This hypocrite not only colonized one of the "bad", it also invaded the other "bad". It's the hypocrisy that's just unbearable. I don't remember china claiming to be the world's beacon of good. Don't remember russia claiming to be the epitome of freedom and democracy.
- _hilro 5y ago
  Your puppet strings are showing...
- CapricornNoble 5y ago
  >>>It was the "CPC" and the communists who liberated china. You do realize that right? Depends on what you mean by "liberated". The bulk of the fighting against the Imperial Japanese military was done by the KMT Nationalists, under Chiang Kai-Shek. The KMT lost the civil war afterwards due to still being a shitty unpopular government, and then the CPC went on to "liberate" tens of millions of Chinese from their corporeal bodies during the Cultural Revolution. >>>I don't remember china claiming to be the world's beacon of good. The Chinese government is VERY good at information operations.[1] It is usually more subtle than America's ham-fisted chest-thumping. The CCP uses a lot of proxies to sing its praises, like this: [2]. But Xi Jinping is generally assertive in casting China as a model for the world. From [3]: "China will become more assertive on the world stage and believes its governance model is attractive to other countries will likely raise all sorts of alarms in Asian and Western capitals. Xi declared that China "has become a great power in the world" and "it is time for us to take center stage in the world and to make a greater contribution to humankind". [1] https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/bridge-ii_fullreport-r7-021221.pdf https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/bridge-ii_fullreport... [2] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-05/31/c_139980463.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-05/31/c_139980463.htm [3] https://sinocism.com/p/welcome-to-the-xi-era-sinocism-weekly-102117 https://sinocism.com/p/welcome-to-the-xi-era-sinocism-weekly...
- minusf 5y ago
  both china and russia have ridiculous claims for every day of the week just as well. at some level all political claims are ridiculous but all countries mentioned in your post are pathological liars, they just lie about different things in different ways.
- dataangel 5y ago
  You ignored that China limits religious expression and puts people in re-education camps. That’s not propaganda, that is the actual situation. They also make an enormous point of trying to portray themselves in the best possible light. That’s why their news media is extraordinarily censored. That’s why people trying to spread virus information by text had to use ridiculous circumlocutions to avoid the automatic banned-phrase detectors. Russia has sham elections where Putin always gets 99% of the vote. It absolutely tries to pretend it’s a democracy. There is an obvious moral appeal to democracy that is inherent to the idea. Likewise guarantees of human rights. China and Russia could embrace these ideals for real and have the same moral high ground, but that is obviously not the state of things, and the fact that they are both run by leaders not accountable to a real vote is why I they are unlikely to change soon. At least the US has means to course correct.
axiolite 5y ago
> while the US was far more evil than anyone cared to admit at the time, and the USSR far less than the US propaganda would have you believe, Have you not heard of Stalin? Many more murders than the fascists / Nazis / holocaust.
- deanCommie 5y ago
  > Many more murders than the fascists / Nazis / holocaust. Really can't believe I'm about to defend Stalin, but if you hold the Facists/Nazis responsible for all the deaths in WW2 (Which I think you have to), they were responsible for more deaths. Purely direct victims in concentration/death camps, yes Stalin killed more people. But let's not forget, that was all in the 30's. The Cold War started AFTER WW2, after Stalin's death, and the narrative of The Evil Empire vs The Land of The Free all occurred then.
throw_this_one 5y ago
Well put. This is the basic argument against these CCP and authoritarian apologists. Most likely they are going by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which is a simplistic thing to base your world view on.

simorley 5y ago

> However, let's not forget that 50/80 years were dominated by a two-headed fight for world hegemony under the threat of nuclear war and potential apocalypse. Nuclear war? And in that 50/80 years, only one side has ever nuked a city full of civilians. Twice. > This remains true today with China. CPC apologists are all too happy to point out (factually correct) gaps in US integrity and freedom. "CPC apologists". Did we have any integrity and freedom when we were colonizing china? You do realize that we colonized china for nearly 100 years. It was the "CPC" and the communists who liberated china. You do realize that right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_Patrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_Patrol How anyone can claim a nation brutally ( and partly motivated by racism ) colonizing another nation is the one with integrity and freedom is beyond me. > And the primary counterargument from the Communists was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism "Whataboutism" is a well-worn social media propaganda term used a few years ago. Nobody uses it anymore because it exposes the person who uses it. > The most recent Chinese return of the 2 incarcerated Canadians in return for the Huawei executive is the most blatant current example that China will do absolutely whatever it wants. China arrested two canadian spies/operatives in retaliation for canada kidnapping one of their spies/operatives? Shocking. What do you expect. It's statecraft. Tit for tat. Like when we kick out chinese or russian diplomats. They do the same. Or are you still pretending china arbitrarily locked up two innocent canadian tourists? Strangely you aren't worked up about canada kidnapping a chinese national. Kidnapping chinese is fine but kidnapping canadians is wrong? > For all of the US's evils, Russia and China would not have hesitated to kidnap or execute Assange in identical circumstances if he was hiding in an Ecuadorian embassy on their soil. He would have been disappeared a decade ago. But two canadian spies were arrested and not "disappeared". Using your logic, china should be shipping two body bags right? China hasn't disappeared the dalai lama. How many chinese traitors hiding all over the west has china "disappeared"? Absolutely none. You are just stating the same propaganda we've heard over and over again. It gets stale and boring. China bad. Russia bad. US good. Right. At least you didn't bring up anything about genocide. At the end of the day, everyone has done good and everyone has done bad. But one has done far more evil than good while hypocritely pretending to be the world's beacon of good. This hypocrite not only colonized one of the "bad", it also invaded the other "bad". It's the hypocrisy that's just unbearable. I don't remember china claiming to be the world's beacon of good. Don't remember russia claiming to be the epitome of freedom and democracy.

_hilro 5y ago
Your puppet strings are showing...
CapricornNoble 5y ago
>>>It was the "CPC" and the communists who liberated china. You do realize that right? Depends on what you mean by "liberated". The bulk of the fighting against the Imperial Japanese military was done by the KMT Nationalists, under Chiang Kai-Shek. The KMT lost the civil war afterwards due to still being a shitty unpopular government, and then the CPC went on to "liberate" tens of millions of Chinese from their corporeal bodies during the Cultural Revolution. >>>I don't remember china claiming to be the world's beacon of good. The Chinese government is VERY good at information operations.[1] It is usually more subtle than America's ham-fisted chest-thumping. The CCP uses a lot of proxies to sing its praises, like this: [2]. But Xi Jinping is generally assertive in casting China as a model for the world. From [3]: "China will become more assertive on the world stage and believes its governance model is attractive to other countries will likely raise all sorts of alarms in Asian and Western capitals. Xi declared that China "has become a great power in the world" and "it is time for us to take center stage in the world and to make a greater contribution to humankind". [1] https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/bridge-ii_fullreport-r7-021221.pdf https://www.iri.org/sites/default/files/bridge-ii_fullreport... [2] http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-05/31/c_139980463.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-05/31/c_139980463.htm [3] https://sinocism.com/p/welcome-to-the-xi-era-sinocism-weekly-102117 https://sinocism.com/p/welcome-to-the-xi-era-sinocism-weekly...
minusf 5y ago
both china and russia have ridiculous claims for every day of the week just as well. at some level all political claims are ridiculous but all countries mentioned in your post are pathological liars, they just lie about different things in different ways.
dataangel 5y ago
You ignored that China limits religious expression and puts people in re-education camps. That’s not propaganda, that is the actual situation. They also make an enormous point of trying to portray themselves in the best possible light. That’s why their news media is extraordinarily censored. That’s why people trying to spread virus information by text had to use ridiculous circumlocutions to avoid the automatic banned-phrase detectors. Russia has sham elections where Putin always gets 99% of the vote. It absolutely tries to pretend it’s a democracy. There is an obvious moral appeal to democracy that is inherent to the idea. Likewise guarantees of human rights. China and Russia could embrace these ideals for real and have the same moral high ground, but that is obviously not the state of things, and the fact that they are both run by leaders not accountable to a real vote is why I they are unlikely to change soon. At least the US has means to course correct.

axiolite 5y ago

> while the US was far more evil than anyone cared to admit at the time, and the USSR far less than the US propaganda would have you believe, Have you not heard of Stalin? Many more murders than the fascists / Nazis / holocaust.

deanCommie 5y ago
> Many more murders than the fascists / Nazis / holocaust. Really can't believe I'm about to defend Stalin, but if you hold the Facists/Nazis responsible for all the deaths in WW2 (Which I think you have to), they were responsible for more deaths. Purely direct victims in concentration/death camps, yes Stalin killed more people. But let's not forget, that was all in the 30's. The Cold War started AFTER WW2, after Stalin's death, and the narrative of The Evil Empire vs The Land of The Free all occurred then.

throw_this_one 5y ago

Well put. This is the basic argument against these CCP and authoritarian apologists. Most likely they are going by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" which is a simplistic thing to base your world view on.