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It's important that minds (our consciousness) can be easily thought of as not part of the universe, but of course they are. Billions of minds on this planet al

It's important that minds (our consciousness) can be easily thought of as not part of the universe, but of course they are. Billions of minds on this planet alone (and rapidly increasing), all firmly part of the universe. So is the universe conscious? Of course it is. And it's learning about itself from all sorts of crazy angles.

jstanley 5y ago
> but of course they are. I don't think this is cut and dry. Consider a video game. Let's say Doom. All the characters inside Doom (including the player) exist within the Doom universe, but the mind controlling the player does not exist within the Doom universe. Yet there is no indication whatsoever, within the Doom universe, that there exists anything outside it. There is no (or, at least, not necessarily any) experiment you can do inside Doom to determine that the player's consciousness is outside Doom. We only know it is because we've seen outside. Why must our universe be different? We only assume our minds are within it because we haven't seen outside.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Characters in Doom will soon discover that they have no plausible gradual explanation for the mind that controls the player. No matter how many fMRI scans of the player head they take, there is no signal.
  - jstanley 5y ago
    The fact that an fMRI scan shows a signal does not prove that the brain contains the mind.
    - robbedpeter 5y ago
      The fact that any state in which no fmri signal is present coincides 100% with a mind not being present is conclusive enough. Remove the neocortex and the mind is gone. Almost all of the rest of the brain's biology is optional to the phenomenon of mind, except in their respective roles of supporting the neocortex. Neuroscience can't really experiment the same way as other disciplines, but they can study injury and deformity and so-called lower animals, and some of the science is definitive. Unless you demand something metaphysical or spiritual or magical be involved in the human mind, in which case, why are you bothering with science at all? There is no magic. We are neurons relaying a dance of fascinating electrical patterns back and forth, somehow resulting in the construct of our subjective experiences. We have an answer to the question of the mechanics of consciousness. We don't have the algorithm yet, but we're making exponential progress in that direction as microscopy and biology increase the resolution of neural connectomes. The brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the mind, and there's no good reasons to assume otherwise.
      - jstanley 5y ago
        > The brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the mind, and there's no good reasons to assume otherwise. It's equally possible that the brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the interface to the mind. And for what it's worth, I'm not assuming this is the case: I don't know. I'm just saying it might be. The difficulty I have with the idea that the mind is inside the brain is that I do not see how a bunch of neurons can give rise to self-awareness. I'm happy to agree that a bunch of neurons can compute arbitrarily-complex functions, and produce arbitrarily-complex behaviours, and produce the outward appearance of consciousness. But I can't see where the inward sensation of consciousness can come from.
        angelzen 5y ago
        Prediction is the fundamental function of ubiqutous neural systems. Self-awareness is simply prediction turned onto oneself.
- EMM_386 5y ago
  > I don't think this is cut and dry. Either consciousness is some sort of a a metaphysical process we haven't figured out (or simply won't be able to), or our minds are clearly part of the universe. You can do things to the brain, such as anesthesia during surgery, and consciousness goes away. That particular space in the universe that is inside our skulls is conscious (and thus is a point and space in time) means the universe is conscious on some level. How can it possibly be argued otherwise, it's not like brain isn't in this universe? Unless we want to decouple consciousness from brains, but that gets back to the anesthesia example. > haven't seen outside. There is no outside. Einstein showed with general relativity that space and time are connected. No space, no time. And certainly no concept of "outside".
  - jstanley 5y ago
    The point about anaesthesia is a really good one, I hadn't considered that -- if the mind were outside the brain then the most that anaesthetic could do is sensory deprivation rather than loss of consciousness. > There is no outside. This is unknowable. To take my example from the other comment: there is nothing within the Doom video game universe to indicate that there is a real universe outside. You can go as far as you want in X, Y, or Z and you'll never break out of Doom and find yourself in real life. But that doesn't mean there is no outside: the mind controlling the player is outside the Doom universe. (But anaesthetic can't work within the Doom universe, because the anesthetic has no way to reach the mind.)

jstanley 5y ago

> but of course they are. I don't think this is cut and dry. Consider a video game. Let's say Doom. All the characters inside Doom (including the player) exist within the Doom universe, but the mind controlling the player does not exist within the Doom universe. Yet there is no indication whatsoever, within the Doom universe, that there exists anything outside it. There is no (or, at least, not necessarily any) experiment you can do inside Doom to determine that the player's consciousness is outside Doom. We only know it is because we've seen outside. Why must our universe be different? We only assume our minds are within it because we haven't seen outside.

angelzen 5y ago
Characters in Doom will soon discover that they have no plausible gradual explanation for the mind that controls the player. No matter how many fMRI scans of the player head they take, there is no signal.
- jstanley 5y ago
  The fact that an fMRI scan shows a signal does not prove that the brain contains the mind.
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    The fact that any state in which no fmri signal is present coincides 100% with a mind not being present is conclusive enough. Remove the neocortex and the mind is gone. Almost all of the rest of the brain's biology is optional to the phenomenon of mind, except in their respective roles of supporting the neocortex. Neuroscience can't really experiment the same way as other disciplines, but they can study injury and deformity and so-called lower animals, and some of the science is definitive. Unless you demand something metaphysical or spiritual or magical be involved in the human mind, in which case, why are you bothering with science at all? There is no magic. We are neurons relaying a dance of fascinating electrical patterns back and forth, somehow resulting in the construct of our subjective experiences. We have an answer to the question of the mechanics of consciousness. We don't have the algorithm yet, but we're making exponential progress in that direction as microscopy and biology increase the resolution of neural connectomes. The brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the mind, and there's no good reasons to assume otherwise.
    - jstanley 5y ago
      > The brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the mind, and there's no good reasons to assume otherwise. It's equally possible that the brain, specifically the neocortex, contains the interface to the mind. And for what it's worth, I'm not assuming this is the case: I don't know. I'm just saying it might be. The difficulty I have with the idea that the mind is inside the brain is that I do not see how a bunch of neurons can give rise to self-awareness. I'm happy to agree that a bunch of neurons can compute arbitrarily-complex functions, and produce arbitrarily-complex behaviours, and produce the outward appearance of consciousness. But I can't see where the inward sensation of consciousness can come from.
      - angelzen 5y ago
        Prediction is the fundamental function of ubiqutous neural systems. Self-awareness is simply prediction turned onto oneself.
EMM_386 5y ago
> I don't think this is cut and dry. Either consciousness is some sort of a a metaphysical process we haven't figured out (or simply won't be able to), or our minds are clearly part of the universe. You can do things to the brain, such as anesthesia during surgery, and consciousness goes away. That particular space in the universe that is inside our skulls is conscious (and thus is a point and space in time) means the universe is conscious on some level. How can it possibly be argued otherwise, it's not like brain isn't in this universe? Unless we want to decouple consciousness from brains, but that gets back to the anesthesia example. > haven't seen outside. There is no outside. Einstein showed with general relativity that space and time are connected. No space, no time. And certainly no concept of "outside".
- jstanley 5y ago
  The point about anaesthesia is a really good one, I hadn't considered that -- if the mind were outside the brain then the most that anaesthetic could do is sensory deprivation rather than loss of consciousness. > There is no outside. This is unknowable. To take my example from the other comment: there is nothing within the Doom video game universe to indicate that there is a real universe outside. You can go as far as you want in X, Y, or Z and you'll never break out of Doom and find yourself in real life. But that doesn't mean there is no outside: the mind controlling the player is outside the Doom universe. (But anaesthetic can't work within the Doom universe, because the anesthetic has no way to reach the mind.)