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You have a very broken idea (just like most equality supporters) about what gender equality is. It should be equal opportunity not equal outcome. The usual argu

You have a very broken idea (just like most equality supporters) about what gender equality is. It should be equal opportunity not equal outcome. The usual argument about having a parliament divided 50/50 is that the population is divided roughly 50/50. But everybody always somehow forgets that even women voters aren't voting for women...

inter_netuser 5y ago
At some point every well intentioned movement becomes a caricature of its former self, it seems.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
detaro 5y ago
There is a difference between "parliament should always be 50/50" and "parliament has always (until today) skewed in one direction, that suggests a problem".
- ohmaigad 5y ago
  So if women voters for the most part have thought that a man is the better candidate there is a problem? Maybe i am just misunderstanding and basing my opinion on how election system works in my country which i think is gender equal - anyone can make a party (obviously you have to be a citizen) as long as you get the minimum amount of party members, you can run in the election and the election itself is based on votes per party + votes for each candidate within that party (+/- system). So if a party gets 5 seats in the parliament, the top most "upvoted" candidates get those seats. There is nothing preventing women from creating a party which would appease to the women voters and running for election. That is equality. But nowadays it is easier to blame sexism and whatnot if the result is something you don't like (women not voting for the women centric party).
  - jwmhjwmh 5y ago
    If, in a vacuum, men and women are equally viable as members of parliament, then a 50/50 split in parliament should be about the average in a society without bias on the part of the system or the people.
    - ohmaigad 5y ago
      Except the world does not operate in only black and white - not everybody goes to vote, not everybody becomes a politician, not everybody has the same political views etc. This can be seen in gender equality/feminist "success" countries where when people are more or less free to choose, the distribution is not 50/50 and some groups of people simply don't want to agree to the fact that men and women can be different and want different things in life.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
        But I don’t know if any broad studies that would indicate that being a politician is something that suits males on some biological level. If anything politics seems like a very female endeavor(stereotypically), since you’re organizing a community and highly communicating complex sociological ideals with peers of various education levels.
        bobthechef 5y ago
        That’s extremely wishy washy. Women may be more socially oriented than men when it comes to work, for example, but the nature of this social disposition and inclination is different than the kind that is fruitful in politics. The motive and the end matter.
      - nverno 5y ago
        Right, it should be "men and women were equally likely to seek political office and ..." to account for the sexes seeming to prefer different occupations.
        5y ago
toofy 5y ago
I’m not sure we can separate the two so cleanly, equality of opportunity comes along with all of a child’s inputs and external forces as they’re growing. Equality of opportunity would absolutely mean not funneling them in one direction or another based on something like their sex, gender, or whatever. A 50/50 outcome might be a flawed measurement of something like equality of opportunity if it were the only measurement we were using, but I don’t think it is the only thing we see. When we consider the not too distant past, this ratio indicates we are probably doing something correctly to mitigate those external forces that used to funnel people into (or away from) certain professions purely because of something like which sex they were born. We don’t yet have an agreed upon and accurate way to measure whether or not we are indeed offering equality of opportunity, and until we do, seeing something like this at least indicates we’re much closer than we were 20, 30, or 100 years ago.
- visarga 5y ago
  > equality of opportunity comes along with all of a child’s inputs and external forces as they’re growing This reminds me of the nature vs nurture debates. "A child’s inputs and external forces" is a funny name to call their parents and teachers. Because it's mostly their parents and teachers that are going to have an influence in their education. And if they do spend more time, money and effort to boost the education of their children, then it's a family and teacher merit. It's not unfair when their children do better. An even more important part which is not mentioned is that opportunity is in large part the result of hard work. A child makes her own opportunities by intelligence, passion and effort.
  - toofy 5y ago
    > "A child’s inputs and external forces" is a funny name to call their parents and teachers. I used that phrase specifically because a person has far more influences in their life than just their parents or teachers. The things that limit or expand a person’s choices are far more than just teachers or family life. Are parents and teacher influences important? Sure. But they are absolutely not the only influences. And neither of those are what I mean when I say external forces. I’m not sure I have a lot of disagreement with most of the other things you say. Of course a person should make their own opportunities from hard work, passion, and effort. However (to tie this to the comment I initially replied to) if equality of opportunity is the goal, then we need to make sure we reward actual hard work, not only family multipliers. It’s not like we have to look far to see how many lazy rich kids have countless opportunities and how many hard working poor people struggle yet are incredibly limited in their choices. Maximizing individual agency means we give everyone who wants to pursue an educational field or career a fair shot at it regardless of who their family is or regardless of what sex they’re born as or their race or whatever. Do they have to work hard? Of course. Should a lazy rich kid whose family “…spend more time, money and effort to boost the education of their children…” have more opportunities because of “family merit” than the poor kid who worked their ass off and did well? Absolutely not. And the reverse is true as well. We should be maximizing individual agency and maximizing individual choice and neither of those means we have to abandon hard work. But it does mean we have to knock down arbitrary barriers.
hef19898 5y ago
Which didn't stop men to dominate all positions of power for centuries. Women weren't even allowed to vote, something that changed very recently in some countries (looking at you, Swiss). So yeah, equality here means to have the same right to he overspreading that men have.
hutzlibu 5y ago
What I am missing is, that women do actually get pregnant at times. And when they do, they have rightfully other things on their mind. Now becoming a father is surely something that got my mind busy, too, but I was still able to give 100% the whole time, without vomitting on the toilet, or having to spend the day in bed. Meaning I could have done a political campaign in that time, but my female partner physically could have not. So demanding 50/50 either requires even more effort from the women, meaning giving birth to children AND pursue 100% (political) career - or it means, lowering standards because of sex? Meaning voting for someone because of sex and not because of competence. (sounds like sexism, no?) In other words, it is complicated and I try to for myself to just focus on the competence on the person and not their gender (or race,...).
- geofft 5y ago
  Iceland's current parliament has an average age of 49. https://data.ipu.org/content/iceland?chamber_id=13425 https://data.ipu.org/content/iceland?chamber_id=13425 The average age of childbirth in Iceland is 31. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00017/default/table?lang=en https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00017/defa... So I think there is plenty of time for women to get pregnant and then get elected.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    There is something called "opportunity cost". Small kids demand more, than just physical inconvenience during pregnancy. And small kids usually require their mother. (I cannot breast feed for example and mother milk is still quite superior to the industrial milk, but it is about more than that) So all of it is time and energy, that could not be invested into a political career. Have a baby and be out of the game for some time and you will have to struggle to catch up to those, who did not have a baby. So I find it not surprising, that we do not have 50/50 for leadership positions, as they usually require intense effort, before reaching that. (networking, building skills, reputation ...) So should we find ways, to support women more, to not "just be mothers", but also going other ways? Absolutely. But maybe we can start with not degrading women who are "just mothers" - as being a good mum, can be a 24h job. So I think the idea that women should be mothers AND have successful careers (and preferable both at once), just creates uncecessary pressure and stress. And the 50/50 idea creates that, in my opinion.
alkonaut 5y ago
Equal opportunity would mean there would be a roughly 50/50 split. Unless one subscribes to some notion that biology would make women desire the positions (politics, management, ...) less.
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  Isn’t this what the evidence suggests though? https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/23655 https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/23655

inter_netuser 5y ago

At some point every well intentioned movement becomes a caricature of its former self, it seems.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

detaro 5y ago

There is a difference between "parliament should always be 50/50" and "parliament has always (until today) skewed in one direction, that suggests a problem".

ohmaigad 5y ago
So if women voters for the most part have thought that a man is the better candidate there is a problem? Maybe i am just misunderstanding and basing my opinion on how election system works in my country which i think is gender equal - anyone can make a party (obviously you have to be a citizen) as long as you get the minimum amount of party members, you can run in the election and the election itself is based on votes per party + votes for each candidate within that party (+/- system). So if a party gets 5 seats in the parliament, the top most "upvoted" candidates get those seats. There is nothing preventing women from creating a party which would appease to the women voters and running for election. That is equality. But nowadays it is easier to blame sexism and whatnot if the result is something you don't like (women not voting for the women centric party).
- jwmhjwmh 5y ago
  If, in a vacuum, men and women are equally viable as members of parliament, then a 50/50 split in parliament should be about the average in a society without bias on the part of the system or the people.
  - ohmaigad 5y ago
    Except the world does not operate in only black and white - not everybody goes to vote, not everybody becomes a politician, not everybody has the same political views etc. This can be seen in gender equality/feminist "success" countries where when people are more or less free to choose, the distribution is not 50/50 and some groups of people simply don't want to agree to the fact that men and women can be different and want different things in life.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      But I don’t know if any broad studies that would indicate that being a politician is something that suits males on some biological level. If anything politics seems like a very female endeavor(stereotypically), since you’re organizing a community and highly communicating complex sociological ideals with peers of various education levels.
      - bobthechef 5y ago
        That’s extremely wishy washy. Women may be more socially oriented than men when it comes to work, for example, but the nature of this social disposition and inclination is different than the kind that is fruitful in politics. The motive and the end matter.
    - nverno 5y ago
      Right, it should be "men and women were equally likely to seek political office and ..." to account for the sexes seeming to prefer different occupations.
      - 5y ago

toofy 5y ago

I’m not sure we can separate the two so cleanly, equality of opportunity comes along with all of a child’s inputs and external forces as they’re growing. Equality of opportunity would absolutely mean not funneling them in one direction or another based on something like their sex, gender, or whatever. A 50/50 outcome might be a flawed measurement of something like equality of opportunity if it were the only measurement we were using, but I don’t think it is the only thing we see. When we consider the not too distant past, this ratio indicates we are probably doing something correctly to mitigate those external forces that used to funnel people into (or away from) certain professions purely because of something like which sex they were born. We don’t yet have an agreed upon and accurate way to measure whether or not we are indeed offering equality of opportunity, and until we do, seeing something like this at least indicates we’re much closer than we were 20, 30, or 100 years ago.

visarga 5y ago
> equality of opportunity comes along with all of a child’s inputs and external forces as they’re growing This reminds me of the nature vs nurture debates. "A child’s inputs and external forces" is a funny name to call their parents and teachers. Because it's mostly their parents and teachers that are going to have an influence in their education. And if they do spend more time, money and effort to boost the education of their children, then it's a family and teacher merit. It's not unfair when their children do better. An even more important part which is not mentioned is that opportunity is in large part the result of hard work. A child makes her own opportunities by intelligence, passion and effort.
- toofy 5y ago
  > "A child’s inputs and external forces" is a funny name to call their parents and teachers. I used that phrase specifically because a person has far more influences in their life than just their parents or teachers. The things that limit or expand a person’s choices are far more than just teachers or family life. Are parents and teacher influences important? Sure. But they are absolutely not the only influences. And neither of those are what I mean when I say external forces. I’m not sure I have a lot of disagreement with most of the other things you say. Of course a person should make their own opportunities from hard work, passion, and effort. However (to tie this to the comment I initially replied to) if equality of opportunity is the goal, then we need to make sure we reward actual hard work, not only family multipliers. It’s not like we have to look far to see how many lazy rich kids have countless opportunities and how many hard working poor people struggle yet are incredibly limited in their choices. Maximizing individual agency means we give everyone who wants to pursue an educational field or career a fair shot at it regardless of who their family is or regardless of what sex they’re born as or their race or whatever. Do they have to work hard? Of course. Should a lazy rich kid whose family “…spend more time, money and effort to boost the education of their children…” have more opportunities because of “family merit” than the poor kid who worked their ass off and did well? Absolutely not. And the reverse is true as well. We should be maximizing individual agency and maximizing individual choice and neither of those means we have to abandon hard work. But it does mean we have to knock down arbitrary barriers.

hef19898 5y ago

Which didn't stop men to dominate all positions of power for centuries. Women weren't even allowed to vote, something that changed very recently in some countries (looking at you, Swiss). So yeah, equality here means to have the same right to he overspreading that men have.

hutzlibu 5y ago

What I am missing is, that women do actually get pregnant at times. And when they do, they have rightfully other things on their mind. Now becoming a father is surely something that got my mind busy, too, but I was still able to give 100% the whole time, without vomitting on the toilet, or having to spend the day in bed. Meaning I could have done a political campaign in that time, but my female partner physically could have not. So demanding 50/50 either requires even more effort from the women, meaning giving birth to children AND pursue 100% (political) career - or it means, lowering standards because of sex? Meaning voting for someone because of sex and not because of competence. (sounds like sexism, no?) In other words, it is complicated and I try to for myself to just focus on the competence on the person and not their gender (or race,...).

geofft 5y ago
Iceland's current parliament has an average age of 49. https://data.ipu.org/content/iceland?chamber_id=13425 https://data.ipu.org/content/iceland?chamber_id=13425 The average age of childbirth in Iceland is 31. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00017/default/table?lang=en https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00017/defa... So I think there is plenty of time for women to get pregnant and then get elected.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  There is something called "opportunity cost". Small kids demand more, than just physical inconvenience during pregnancy. And small kids usually require their mother. (I cannot breast feed for example and mother milk is still quite superior to the industrial milk, but it is about more than that) So all of it is time and energy, that could not be invested into a political career. Have a baby and be out of the game for some time and you will have to struggle to catch up to those, who did not have a baby. So I find it not surprising, that we do not have 50/50 for leadership positions, as they usually require intense effort, before reaching that. (networking, building skills, reputation ...) So should we find ways, to support women more, to not "just be mothers", but also going other ways? Absolutely. But maybe we can start with not degrading women who are "just mothers" - as being a good mum, can be a 24h job. So I think the idea that women should be mothers AND have successful careers (and preferable both at once), just creates uncecessary pressure and stress. And the 50/50 idea creates that, in my opinion.

alkonaut 5y ago

Equal opportunity would mean there would be a roughly 50/50 split. Unless one subscribes to some notion that biology would make women desire the positions (politics, management, ...) less.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
Isn’t this what the evidence suggests though? https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/23655 https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/23655