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Egyptian here. Many taken during the British occupation. But throughout history, just stolen/smuggled out. Egypt was also occupied by the Greeks, Romans, Arabs

Egyptian here. Many taken during the British occupation. But throughout history, just stolen/smuggled out. Egypt was also occupied by the Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Ottomans, and French. And aside from the occupations, there's a pretty vibrant smuggling trade. Egypt keeps trying to repatriate these artifacts but with very limited success (https://english.alaraby.co.uk/analysis/egypt-wants-its-stolen-artefacts-back https://english.alaraby.co.uk/analysis/egypt-wants-its-stole...). As an Egyptian it's both interesting/frustrating to find museums outside Egypt with more stuff than many museums in Egypt. For instance, it was a little intriguing when visiting the Vatican museum, to find they had a pretty large Ancient Egyptian collection for some reason.

01100011 5y ago
Sorry if this comes across as rude, but are modern Egyptians related in any way to ancient Egyptians? If not, it would seem that their possession of ancient Egyptian artifacts is no more justified than any other modern people.
- Ozzie_osman 5y ago
  Not rude, but I think a little naive. Because it's not just DNA. Egyptians (and our Egyptologists) think we are related to Ancient Egyptians, despite that over the years, African, North African, European, and Asian DNA has mixed in. Some Western scholars disagree. But that's not the point. I grew up in an apartment where on a clear day, you could look West and see the step pyramid at Saqqara. I drove in a street parallel to the aqueduct on my way to my grandmother's house each week. I passed Saladin's citadel regularly driving through the city. My high school graduation picture was on the first step of the Great Pyramid. So I could give f_uck all whether I'm related by DNA to the people who built those. It's part of my heritage.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Up until the end of the pagan Roman period Greeks and Egyptians didn’t mix much - so it’s pretty plausible that the gene pool was around when the Arabs invaded. I would like to know which Western scholars disagreed. I recently read the book “Sunset Oasis” by an Egyptian author which was the basis for a TV series too apparently which was a good take on this.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Wow that is a really interesting position to take, I appreciate the bluntness. How would you reconcile that with other nations or people who currently have ownership of said artifacts, and have a heritage of conquering / empires / archaeology / tomb raiding / whatever you might call it? Someone might see the British Museum out the window of their apartment and have photos of themselves in the Egypt exhibit. I'm not trying to be mocking or trivialize the issue or your answer, just trying to explore this idea.
- leto_ii 5y ago
  I would say the parent author has been too polite in their response. Your comment is offensive and nonsensical. Why on earth would genetic relations matter in any way for something like this? As far as I know basically nowhere on Earth is it possible to trace direct genetic lineages back thousands of years to some specific ancient population living in the same area. Perhaps things are different in Australia, or other isolated places, but I think pretty much anywhere in Eurasia + Africa you will get an endless flow and mixing of populations, cultures, religions etc. With this in mind, it's safe to say that your view would justify all kinds of imperialist atrocities. I think at any given moment in time what matters is whether the population currently inhabiting that place voluntarily and democratically decided to relinquish/sell certain artifacts. Whether that population is genetically related to the people who created the artifacts is irrelevant.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    No it isn't, you're just deciding to get offended by a reasonable question. It's actually very relevant and common practice around the world for people whose ancestors were displaced or wronged to feel the need to seek reparations or have some kind of restoration or acknowledgement. In Australia since you bring it up, there actually has been extremely significant flows of people. Notably, Europeans displaced a lot of Aboriginal people from their land, and similarly took various historical artifacts. In recent times there has been a trend to return those and return some claim to the land, to the people whose descendants were replaced. The idea that someone can just sit on the land and say nope that's old history I own the land now your ancestral home and your great great grandfather's spear was never yours anyway so I'm keeping it, is just weird. It's completely normal to feel, and many people do have a deep connection to their ancestors, even if you don't. Or apply similar to Palestine and Israel. Or any number of similar cases around the world.
    - 01100011 5y ago
      Parent poster is possibly from a generation which has been taught that asking questions is an offense, so I will forgive them for responding with hostility. I am curious what other people feel about the issue of "nativeness". As a European American I obviously am interested in understanding how the world views the rights my children might have to the land in which they will be born. Is there a time limit for when an occupier or invader becomes a native? The question of whether or not Ancient Egypt belongs in some way to modern Egypt(the government or its people) is perhaps less politically sensitive than asking whether myself, my people or my government bear some connection to the culture of ancient North Americans. It is a relevant question I believe. One could ask how such issues relate to other cultures around the world. As the descendants of conquerors, I am compelled by circumstances to believe "might makes right" or else I would have to consider returning to the land to which I have ancient connections. I understand this is a sensitive question and likely to trigger folks who believe I am trying to lay a rhetorical trap or secretly push some right or left wing agenda but I am simply trying to think through what I believe to be right.

01100011 5y ago

Sorry if this comes across as rude, but are modern Egyptians related in any way to ancient Egyptians? If not, it would seem that their possession of ancient Egyptian artifacts is no more justified than any other modern people.

Ozzie_osman 5y ago
Not rude, but I think a little naive. Because it's not just DNA. Egyptians (and our Egyptologists) think we are related to Ancient Egyptians, despite that over the years, African, North African, European, and Asian DNA has mixed in. Some Western scholars disagree. But that's not the point. I grew up in an apartment where on a clear day, you could look West and see the step pyramid at Saqqara. I drove in a street parallel to the aqueduct on my way to my grandmother's house each week. I passed Saladin's citadel regularly driving through the city. My high school graduation picture was on the first step of the Great Pyramid. So I could give f_uck all whether I'm related by DNA to the people who built those. It's part of my heritage.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Up until the end of the pagan Roman period Greeks and Egyptians didn’t mix much - so it’s pretty plausible that the gene pool was around when the Arabs invaded. I would like to know which Western scholars disagreed. I recently read the book “Sunset Oasis” by an Egyptian author which was the basis for a TV series too apparently which was a good take on this.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Wow that is a really interesting position to take, I appreciate the bluntness. How would you reconcile that with other nations or people who currently have ownership of said artifacts, and have a heritage of conquering / empires / archaeology / tomb raiding / whatever you might call it? Someone might see the British Museum out the window of their apartment and have photos of themselves in the Egypt exhibit. I'm not trying to be mocking or trivialize the issue or your answer, just trying to explore this idea.
leto_ii 5y ago
I would say the parent author has been too polite in their response. Your comment is offensive and nonsensical. Why on earth would genetic relations matter in any way for something like this? As far as I know basically nowhere on Earth is it possible to trace direct genetic lineages back thousands of years to some specific ancient population living in the same area. Perhaps things are different in Australia, or other isolated places, but I think pretty much anywhere in Eurasia + Africa you will get an endless flow and mixing of populations, cultures, religions etc. With this in mind, it's safe to say that your view would justify all kinds of imperialist atrocities. I think at any given moment in time what matters is whether the population currently inhabiting that place voluntarily and democratically decided to relinquish/sell certain artifacts. Whether that population is genetically related to the people who created the artifacts is irrelevant.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  No it isn't, you're just deciding to get offended by a reasonable question. It's actually very relevant and common practice around the world for people whose ancestors were displaced or wronged to feel the need to seek reparations or have some kind of restoration or acknowledgement. In Australia since you bring it up, there actually has been extremely significant flows of people. Notably, Europeans displaced a lot of Aboriginal people from their land, and similarly took various historical artifacts. In recent times there has been a trend to return those and return some claim to the land, to the people whose descendants were replaced. The idea that someone can just sit on the land and say nope that's old history I own the land now your ancestral home and your great great grandfather's spear was never yours anyway so I'm keeping it, is just weird. It's completely normal to feel, and many people do have a deep connection to their ancestors, even if you don't. Or apply similar to Palestine and Israel. Or any number of similar cases around the world.
  - 01100011 5y ago
    Parent poster is possibly from a generation which has been taught that asking questions is an offense, so I will forgive them for responding with hostility. I am curious what other people feel about the issue of "nativeness". As a European American I obviously am interested in understanding how the world views the rights my children might have to the land in which they will be born. Is there a time limit for when an occupier or invader becomes a native? The question of whether or not Ancient Egypt belongs in some way to modern Egypt(the government or its people) is perhaps less politically sensitive than asking whether myself, my people or my government bear some connection to the culture of ancient North Americans. It is a relevant question I believe. One could ask how such issues relate to other cultures around the world. As the descendants of conquerors, I am compelled by circumstances to believe "might makes right" or else I would have to consider returning to the land to which I have ancient connections. I understand this is a sensitive question and likely to trigger folks who believe I am trying to lay a rhetorical trap or secretly push some right or left wing agenda but I am simply trying to think through what I believe to be right.