5 ms·

> “Believe in science” is just a new religion for the intellectual class. What does that even mean? If I believe the earth is round, then science is my religio

by goto11 5y ago

> “Believe in science” is just a new religion for the intellectual class. What does that even mean? If I believe the earth is round, then science is my religion? If I believe it is flat, then I am an atheist?

Kenji 5y ago
If you haven't confirmed it yourself (it's quite simple, there are various experiments you can do) then yes it is belief. You simply believe that the evidence is persuasive. That is good enough for most things, but for things of great importance, you wanna dig down deeper, do your own research. If you just trust whatever the current scientific authorities say, then yes, this behavior is indistinguishable from religion. Completely indistinguishable.
h2odragon 5y ago
Belief in something (true or not) without concern for evidence is religion. If your faith can be changed by evidence that contradicts it, then you might begin to practice science by seeking more evidence.
- goto11 5y ago
  So if the restaurant claims the tomatoes are locally sourced and I don't personally verify... that is religion? I know the concept of religion is hard to define unambiguously, but come on.
rcthompson 5y ago
"Believe in science" doesn't mean believing in any specific scientific fact. It means believing whatever "science" tells you. The problem is that most people aren't equipped to tell the difference between science and pseudoscience, so if they "believe science" then they also end up believing pseudoscience.
BoxOfRain 5y ago
I think what the GP is getting at is that science is a process, not a priesthood. Being part of the social institution of science doesn't automatically make one's opinions more valid, what makes their opinions more valid than the layperson is the correct application of the scientific method. Believing someone "because they're a scientist therefore they are right" like most of the general public is still a faith-based approach, believing someone because their paper managed to convince most of their peers they were onto something and produced reproducable results is a scientific approach. The GP is essentially claiming that many people are believing the right things for the wrong reason if I've interpreted the point correctly. The problem is in this brave new post-pandemic world we've elevated scientists to the social position of prophets without the general public really being aware of how the scientific method is supposed to work or the limitations of things like statistical modelling. Science is a mere process that society has foisted the role of a priesthood onto, and I really think that this is asking for trouble because for the most part people have trouble differentiating science from pseudoscience. This rising tide has lifted all boats, including the quacks and charlatans of the world.
- goto11 5y ago
  It seems a lot of everyday things is a religion then. What if I hire a plumber to fix my sink and he says he need to replace a pipe to make it work. I know nothing about plumbing, so of course I trust the plumber even though I know any human make mistakes. Does that mean I have "elevated plumbers to a priesthood"? It seems like almost any human interaction involves a level of trust - but if everything is "religion" then the word is meaningless.
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    Hardly, nobody's saying that you can use plumbing to completely ignore ethical philosophy as though moral principles can just drop out of logic if we derive them in a clever enough way, but lots of people seem to make this claim (intentionally or not) about science. There's even a word for this: Scientism. I wouldn't ask a plumber OR a scientist about making moral decisions as though they had some special advantage.
    - goto11 5y ago
      Can you link to an example to someone making such a claim? Just so I'm sure I understand what you are referring to.
DrStormyDaniels 5y ago
Forget the curvature of the earth. The controversy is how a belief in science, which is necessary, translates into a non-trivial understanding of human life, which is voluntary - this is where things get "religious", in the sense of tendentious ideological reductive thinking.
haunter 5y ago
Scientisim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism

by goto11 5y ago

Kenji 5y ago

If you haven't confirmed it yourself (it's quite simple, there are various experiments you can do) then yes it is belief. You simply believe that the evidence is persuasive. That is good enough for most things, but for things of great importance, you wanna dig down deeper, do your own research. If you just trust whatever the current scientific authorities say, then yes, this behavior is indistinguishable from religion. Completely indistinguishable.

h2odragon 5y ago

Belief in something (true or not) without concern for evidence is religion. If your faith can be changed by evidence that contradicts it, then you might begin to practice science by seeking more evidence.

goto11 5y ago
So if the restaurant claims the tomatoes are locally sourced and I don't personally verify... that is religion? I know the concept of religion is hard to define unambiguously, but come on.

rcthompson 5y ago

"Believe in science" doesn't mean believing in any specific scientific fact. It means believing whatever "science" tells you. The problem is that most people aren't equipped to tell the difference between science and pseudoscience, so if they "believe science" then they also end up believing pseudoscience.

BoxOfRain 5y ago

I think what the GP is getting at is that science is a process, not a priesthood. Being part of the social institution of science doesn't automatically make one's opinions more valid, what makes their opinions more valid than the layperson is the correct application of the scientific method. Believing someone "because they're a scientist therefore they are right" like most of the general public is still a faith-based approach, believing someone because their paper managed to convince most of their peers they were onto something and produced reproducable results is a scientific approach. The GP is essentially claiming that many people are believing the right things for the wrong reason if I've interpreted the point correctly. The problem is in this brave new post-pandemic world we've elevated scientists to the social position of prophets without the general public really being aware of how the scientific method is supposed to work or the limitations of things like statistical modelling. Science is a mere process that society has foisted the role of a priesthood onto, and I really think that this is asking for trouble because for the most part people have trouble differentiating science from pseudoscience. This rising tide has lifted all boats, including the quacks and charlatans of the world.

goto11 5y ago
It seems a lot of everyday things is a religion then. What if I hire a plumber to fix my sink and he says he need to replace a pipe to make it work. I know nothing about plumbing, so of course I trust the plumber even though I know any human make mistakes. Does that mean I have "elevated plumbers to a priesthood"? It seems like almost any human interaction involves a level of trust - but if everything is "religion" then the word is meaningless.
- BoxOfRain 5y ago
  Hardly, nobody's saying that you can use plumbing to completely ignore ethical philosophy as though moral principles can just drop out of logic if we derive them in a clever enough way, but lots of people seem to make this claim (intentionally or not) about science. There's even a word for this: Scientism. I wouldn't ask a plumber OR a scientist about making moral decisions as though they had some special advantage.
  - goto11 5y ago
    Can you link to an example to someone making such a claim? Just so I'm sure I understand what you are referring to.

DrStormyDaniels 5y ago

Forget the curvature of the earth. The controversy is how a belief in science, which is necessary, translates into a non-trivial understanding of human life, which is voluntary - this is where things get "religious", in the sense of tendentious ideological reductive thinking.

haunter 5y ago

Scientisim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism