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Tesla fsd has many parallels to Theranos Edison device. They don't share the data. They don't work as promised. They charge investors up front for what is esse
by yawaworht1978 5y ago
Tesla fsd has many parallels to Theranos Edison device.
They don't share the data.
They don't work as promised.
They charge investors up front for what is essentially vaporware.
They advertise the ware can or will be able to do much more than it currently does.
They both put peoples health at risk.
At least Tesla has a proper usable product, an electric car.
Good on sf to raise concerns, too many other governments are just looking away.
- dataking 5y agoInstead of using the Edison device, as far as I understand, Theranos performed blood testing using traditional providers but hid this fact from investors. FSD, on the other hand, is something 3rd parties can evaluate on their own, the flaws are there for all to see. Hype, while not always okay, isn't fraud.
- bumby 5y ago>Hype, while not always okay, isn't fraud. There is a legal concept of “theft by false promises” though. I don’t know where the line is drawn between that and “hype”.
- clouddrover 5y agoIn 2016 Tesla falsely claimed that all Tesla vehicles being produced had the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver: https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... It doesn't seem to have hurt Tesla so far. People are still spending money on the undelivered promise of full self driving.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- scoopertrooper 5y agoNot fraud if they give you a free upgrade to more capable hardware. https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-computer https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-computer
- clouddrover 5y agoA free upgrade to hardware that's still not capable of full self driving. Tesla promised that full autonomy will enable a Tesla to be substantially safer than a human driver, lower the financial cost of transportation for those who own a car and provide low-cost on-demand mobility for those who do not. When will Tesla deliver what was paid for?
- bumby 5y agoI don’t know that I agree, especially if you used the previous software in a way that caused real harm or loss. Imagine you were a financial consulting firm and I sold you software that guaranteed that you could make 20% per year every year for your clients. But, oops, my software couldn’t do that initially and you lost millions of dollars, garnered a bad reputation, etc. Would it be okay if I eventually delivered an update that fulfilled that promise at a later date?
- sidibe 5y agoWhat if they don't deliver over the entire lifetime of the car (very likely)?
- yawaworht1978 5y agoWell, but where is the software? What is the cut off point for those who believe in musk's empty promises? 2 years? 5? What if it doesn't materialize and the first car nears end of life? Is the "ownership" transferable? At what point can someone say "not delivered as promised"? It seems like Tesla is investing more on promotion and marketing than the right thing, while others simply work on a solution silently. Wouldn't be surprised if Tesla won't be the first to market with fsd.
- moffkalast 5y agoTell me the difference between fraud and hype and I'll have the games industry arrested.
- bumby 5y agoI know the question was rhetorical, I think the case is made easier when one can point to a realized loss in terms of property, money, life/limb etc. I think there’s a much straighter line to than regarding safety critical software than gaming
- svet_0 5y agoComparing Tesla to Theranos is laughable. Tesla FSD/Autopilot are already saving lives. There are countless examples of recorded drives on YouTube where you can see completely safe long drives in crowded city streets with no driver intervention. It's enough to look at FSD 1.0 (Less than A year ago) vs current FSD 10 to see the crazy rate of improvement. There have been 2K testers for a year w/o any accidents, I would much rather my life be "at risk" by Autopilot than a drunk/tired/distracted human driver.
- JustFinishedBSG 5y ago> Tesla FSD/Autopilot are already saving lives. Holy overstatement
- svet_0 5y agoSuch an informative input to the thread
- kalleboo 5y ago> It's enough to look at FSD 1.0 (Less than A year ago) vs current FSD 10 to see the crazy rate of improvement We still haven't gotten basic technologies like speech recognition and OCR to work without proof-reading, and those have been around in consumer technology form since at least the 80's and have had an order of magnitude improvement every decade. These "fuzzy" technologies have an asymptotic improvement curve that never reaches 100% and self-driving is several orders of magnitude more complex.
- svet_0 5y agoYou're right, autonomous driving will never reach 100%, however I'm convinced it will be 10x human in a few years, mostly due to: * Better sensors - ~10 cameras around the car vs 2 cameras on a limited gimble. * Very high consistency - Speed, distance from other cars, optimal stopping distance from a switching stop light, better speed/distance estimation of other entities (eventually) * No distractions - a computer will never drunk drive / look at their phone / argue with the passenger / have road rage. IMO These advantages will out-balance the very rare ambiguous soft situations a computer will have a hard time handling, let's say a custom written no-entry sign or a cop waving their hand.
- jliptzin 5y agoFSD regularly drives me on highways for hours without intervention…pretty amazing stuff considering where we were 5 years ago…say what you will about it, it’s not vaporware and gets better every update
- moffkalast 5y agoYeah the majority of the pushback probably comes from people over expecting what the system should do from overzealous marketing, but the tech is slowly getting there regardless. Whoever says the software flat out doesn't perform either hasn't been keeping up with development or has other motives.
- epgui 5y agoWhat marketing though?
- kzrdude 5y ago"FSD" might be vaporware, i.e it's misnamed because it's not "full" self driving.
- andreilys 5y agoI think calling it vapor ware is uncalled for, you can test drive a Tesla with FSD and see for yourself the level of autonomy it’s achieved relative to other cars. More than anything else it’s marketing hype, and I agree calling it full self driving when it has documented flaws is disingenuous. But it’s not vaporware.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago"level of autonomy it’s achieved relative to other cars." Well Theranos machines did exist and provide results, they were just wrong, so they werent vapour ware either. Its just in healthcare there is a clear benchmark they must be able to meet. There isn't universal agreement for the benchmark for calling it FSD, and there is debate as it's safety. Personally I am not happy with any Self Driving that accidentally drives into a stationary solid object, like a wall or a trailer - that should be impossible.
- moffkalast 5y agoI'm not happy with human drivers doing that either, but it does seem to happen. And that is after all the real life benchmark.
- optimiz3 5y ago> Theranos Edison device Please. You can go online and buy a FSD beta car right now. Countless videos on YouTube of the product working or being improved upon release-to-release.
- sidibe 5y agoFrom those videos it's obvious the product is definitely not working if we take the name of the product at face value
- yawaworht1978 5y agoSo can I sit in one and do that coast to coast trip and watch tv and sleep meanwhile? I remember there was a promise of some coast to coast trip, what happened there?