6 ms·

In the UK you are very unlikely to be able to park anywhere in any city centre without paying. We often have these out-of-town shopping areas that have big groc

In the UK you are very unlikely to be able to park anywhere in any city centre without paying. We often have these out-of-town shopping areas that have big grocery supermarkets, furniture and DIY stores, they might be free. High Street parking may be free for 20 or 30 minutes.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> High Street parking may be free for 20 or 30 minutes. There's a surprising amount of free street parking in San Francisco, although it's often possible to see a meter maid waiting patiently on the sidewalk for the street to go into "no parking" mode, at which point everyone is ticketed immediately.
HPsquared 5y ago
What ends up happening is, people in cars just avoid the city centre (who are usually doing several other measures to repel cars), and end up going to the out-of-town places instead. This fuels a proliferation of sprawl, of course.
- the-dude 5y ago
  My city has large parking lots just outside the city center, great public transport and the city is actually walkable. The city council limits the sprawl by ... not allowing it(sic). We welcome many foreign visitors (mostly German) every weekend and they seem to have no problems with it.
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    The only thing my city centre is particularly good for is going out drinking. Coincidentally that's the only activity you can't do with a car.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      We have that too and we use bicycles for that ( approx 10km radius ).
      - patrick451 5y ago
        It is generally illegal to cycle while intoxicated.
        the-dude 5y ago
        Correct. But you will not get fined by the Dutch police unless you do something additionally stupid.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > My city has large parking lots just outside the city center, great public transport and the city is actually walkable. An interesting experiment would be that if you pay for parking at the city edge, your parking stub can act as a (family pass?) transit ticket.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_and_ride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_and_ride Though I think the parking is usually free, in contrast with parking in the city centre.
      - the-dude 5y ago
        I had to look it up, since I live in the center, but this is what we have. The parking is free and the bus fee is € 6 for two-way to the center, and addtionally for all lines in the city within an hour of parking or leaving.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Maybe in the US with your strange zoning laws. But not in the EU. Here we take public transport, and in the case of London, there’s a green belt that prevents any further sprawl. Another point worth mentioning, the EU is significantly denser and more built up than the US. We don’t have huge tracts of empty land around our cities, for the most part, it’s simply not possible to create a new suburb in many parts of Europe due to the lack of empty space.
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    I'm not familiar with London, but here in Paris, there's quite a lot of people who live outside the city limits, in the suburbs. The vast majority, actually. And if you live in the "greater area" (meaning in towns not directly touching Paris proper), life without a car isn't great. Public transit is serviceable if you need to get to Paris and live in an area served by the suburban trains (or else you need to take a bus or two to reach the station). But for your day-to-day needs, shopping malls are mostly outside the towns, and they're usually a hassle to reach without a car. There will usually be a bus service, but again, it will probably not be close to where you live, and going grocery shopping for a whole family by bus can't be particularly enjoyable.
    - KozmoNau7 5y ago
      This assumes that your shopping needs can only be met by shopping malls. I do all my daily shopping in local shops, I have 5 or 6 in walking distance, 20+ in bicycle distance. The last time I went to a mall was for a specific offer in a specific specialty store, which is certainly not a daily activity. It's a matter of will and not killing off in-town shopping.
      - vladvasiliu 5y ago
        Where do you live? Your comment feels completely disconnected from the reality on the ground. I agree that shopping malls have killed in-town shopping. But maybe there's a reason for that? In-town shops usually don't stay open late enough for people who depend on public transit for longer commutes, which is the case for many people living in the suburbs. Those people don't usually live there by choice, it's usually because they couldn't afford to live in the city center. That's the case for my parents, for example. I don't doubt that there must also have been a comfort angle to that, it's easier to just drive to a big store, get everything you need in one place, and drive back. Also, malls are usually much cheaper that in-town stores. Which, again, is important for people who have to live in the suburbs because of limited means. I'm in the same situation as you, probably even better. I have multiple shops open until 10 PM less than a 10-minute walk away. But I realize that not everyone can afford to live in the city center, so it's not just a matter of will. --- My parents live in a 20000 people town, so it's not the boonies. The closest non-bakery shop is 20 minutes away on foot. It's open from 9 AM to 8 PM, and it only has your basics. Want anything other than packaged sausage and cheese? Tough. The butcher and cheese vendor close at 7 PM. By public transit, it's impossible for them to be home before 7:30 PM for my mom and 8:30 for my dad. They can basically only shop on weekends, so they'd have to haul provisions for the whole week. They cannot do "daily shopping". Of course, my dad's commute is 1:30 each way by transit if there are no issues, or 30 minutes by car, which is what he ends up using.
- patrick451 5y ago
  Yup. This is one of the reasons I generally just avoid city centers altogether. Finding and paying for parking is just not worth the hassle.
mrweasel 5y ago
The parking problem seems to be the exact opposite in many European cities. New apartment blocks are build without providing the required parking, and people aren't willing to pay for parking when visiting the city center. Some people really do need a car to get to work, but if they also want to live in the center of a large city, then they are frequently not even given the option of paying for a parking spot. The city of Copenhagen famously sold more parking permits than there are actual parking spaces to people living in the city center. For when you're just going to a cafe, restaurant, or shopping, I don't get why people can just pay the parking fee, it's often not nearly as expensive as people make it out to be.
- maccard 5y ago
  > Some people really do need a car to get to work, but if they also want to live in the center of a large city, Why does someone living in NYC, Chicago, London, Paris need a car to get to work? There are some very rare cases yes, but the vast vast majority don't need a car, they want a car. > The city of Copenhagen famously sold more parking permits than there are actual parking spaces to people living in the city center. I would almost always expect that to happen. There is far more demand than there is parking, and a permit doesn't give you a right to a space. I would also be hugely surprised if much money (if any) was made from permits. (Enforcement of the CPZs being a different thing that almost certainly does make money). > I don't get why people can just pay the parking fee, it's often not nearly as expensive as people make it out to be. It's £4.50 per hour in the city center here, (plus £0.20 to pay by card - and this is a recent option too. 2-3 years ago it was coins only), and most areas have a 2 hour limit. For anyone actually living in the city, it's almost certainly cheaper to get an Uber each way.
  - prasadjoglekar 5y ago
    This may not translate to London etc., but remember that NYC is a lot larger than Manhattan. There are large parts of NYC that are not serviced by trains/subways, and the only option is a bus. My wife would take a train to a train to a bus to get from one part of Queens to another. 90 minutes on a good day. Driving - 25 mins including finding parking.
lamontcg 5y ago
You've got buses everywhere, trains connecting the cities and the underground all over London. In the USA we might have buses. They're usually designed for poor people who don't have enough money to buy a car to get to work.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> High Street parking may be free for 20 or 30 minutes. There's a surprising amount of free street parking in San Francisco, although it's often possible to see a meter maid waiting patiently on the sidewalk for the street to go into "no parking" mode, at which point everyone is ticketed immediately.

HPsquared 5y ago

What ends up happening is, people in cars just avoid the city centre (who are usually doing several other measures to repel cars), and end up going to the out-of-town places instead. This fuels a proliferation of sprawl, of course.

the-dude 5y ago
My city has large parking lots just outside the city center, great public transport and the city is actually walkable. The city council limits the sprawl by ... not allowing it(sic). We welcome many foreign visitors (mostly German) every weekend and they seem to have no problems with it.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  The only thing my city centre is particularly good for is going out drinking. Coincidentally that's the only activity you can't do with a car.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    We have that too and we use bicycles for that ( approx 10km radius ).
    - patrick451 5y ago
      It is generally illegal to cycle while intoxicated.
      - the-dude 5y ago
        Correct. But you will not get fined by the Dutch police unless you do something additionally stupid.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > My city has large parking lots just outside the city center, great public transport and the city is actually walkable. An interesting experiment would be that if you pay for parking at the city edge, your parking stub can act as a (family pass?) transit ticket.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_and_ride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_and_ride Though I think the parking is usually free, in contrast with parking in the city centre.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      I had to look it up, since I live in the center, but this is what we have. The parking is free and the bus fee is € 6 for two-way to the center, and addtionally for all lines in the city within an hour of parking or leaving.
avianlyric 5y ago
Maybe in the US with your strange zoning laws. But not in the EU. Here we take public transport, and in the case of London, there’s a green belt that prevents any further sprawl. Another point worth mentioning, the EU is significantly denser and more built up than the US. We don’t have huge tracts of empty land around our cities, for the most part, it’s simply not possible to create a new suburb in many parts of Europe due to the lack of empty space.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with London, but here in Paris, there's quite a lot of people who live outside the city limits, in the suburbs. The vast majority, actually. And if you live in the "greater area" (meaning in towns not directly touching Paris proper), life without a car isn't great. Public transit is serviceable if you need to get to Paris and live in an area served by the suburban trains (or else you need to take a bus or two to reach the station). But for your day-to-day needs, shopping malls are mostly outside the towns, and they're usually a hassle to reach without a car. There will usually be a bus service, but again, it will probably not be close to where you live, and going grocery shopping for a whole family by bus can't be particularly enjoyable.
  - KozmoNau7 5y ago
    This assumes that your shopping needs can only be met by shopping malls. I do all my daily shopping in local shops, I have 5 or 6 in walking distance, 20+ in bicycle distance. The last time I went to a mall was for a specific offer in a specific specialty store, which is certainly not a daily activity. It's a matter of will and not killing off in-town shopping.
    - vladvasiliu 5y ago
      Where do you live? Your comment feels completely disconnected from the reality on the ground. I agree that shopping malls have killed in-town shopping. But maybe there's a reason for that? In-town shops usually don't stay open late enough for people who depend on public transit for longer commutes, which is the case for many people living in the suburbs. Those people don't usually live there by choice, it's usually because they couldn't afford to live in the city center. That's the case for my parents, for example. I don't doubt that there must also have been a comfort angle to that, it's easier to just drive to a big store, get everything you need in one place, and drive back. Also, malls are usually much cheaper that in-town stores. Which, again, is important for people who have to live in the suburbs because of limited means. I'm in the same situation as you, probably even better. I have multiple shops open until 10 PM less than a 10-minute walk away. But I realize that not everyone can afford to live in the city center, so it's not just a matter of will. --- My parents live in a 20000 people town, so it's not the boonies. The closest non-bakery shop is 20 minutes away on foot. It's open from 9 AM to 8 PM, and it only has your basics. Want anything other than packaged sausage and cheese? Tough. The butcher and cheese vendor close at 7 PM. By public transit, it's impossible for them to be home before 7:30 PM for my mom and 8:30 for my dad. They can basically only shop on weekends, so they'd have to haul provisions for the whole week. They cannot do "daily shopping". Of course, my dad's commute is 1:30 each way by transit if there are no issues, or 30 minutes by car, which is what he ends up using.
patrick451 5y ago
Yup. This is one of the reasons I generally just avoid city centers altogether. Finding and paying for parking is just not worth the hassle.

mrweasel 5y ago

The parking problem seems to be the exact opposite in many European cities. New apartment blocks are build without providing the required parking, and people aren't willing to pay for parking when visiting the city center. Some people really do need a car to get to work, but if they also want to live in the center of a large city, then they are frequently not even given the option of paying for a parking spot. The city of Copenhagen famously sold more parking permits than there are actual parking spaces to people living in the city center. For when you're just going to a cafe, restaurant, or shopping, I don't get why people can just pay the parking fee, it's often not nearly as expensive as people make it out to be.

maccard 5y ago
> Some people really do need a car to get to work, but if they also want to live in the center of a large city, Why does someone living in NYC, Chicago, London, Paris need a car to get to work? There are some very rare cases yes, but the vast vast majority don't need a car, they want a car. > The city of Copenhagen famously sold more parking permits than there are actual parking spaces to people living in the city center. I would almost always expect that to happen. There is far more demand than there is parking, and a permit doesn't give you a right to a space. I would also be hugely surprised if much money (if any) was made from permits. (Enforcement of the CPZs being a different thing that almost certainly does make money). > I don't get why people can just pay the parking fee, it's often not nearly as expensive as people make it out to be. It's £4.50 per hour in the city center here, (plus £0.20 to pay by card - and this is a recent option too. 2-3 years ago it was coins only), and most areas have a 2 hour limit. For anyone actually living in the city, it's almost certainly cheaper to get an Uber each way.
- prasadjoglekar 5y ago
  This may not translate to London etc., but remember that NYC is a lot larger than Manhattan. There are large parts of NYC that are not serviced by trains/subways, and the only option is a bus. My wife would take a train to a train to a bus to get from one part of Queens to another. 90 minutes on a good day. Driving - 25 mins including finding parking.

lamontcg 5y ago

You've got buses everywhere, trains connecting the cities and the underground all over London. In the USA we might have buses. They're usually designed for poor people who don't have enough money to buy a car to get to work.