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Excellent exposition, thanks! >>censorship's main role is to cool down controversies and to suppress collective action, no matter whether those controversies/c

by toss1 5y ago

Excellent exposition, thanks! >>censorship's main role is to cool down controversies and to suppress collective action, no matter whether those controversies/collective actions are pro- or anti-government. ... while pro-government messages are censored if they become too popular and run the risk of getting a life of its own. This really strikes me as a key element. I've noticed anti-govt sentiments expressed within/from China, and the apparent paradox of them being allowed to exist, and also noted that the main thrust of CCP action was against movements, not comments. It makes sense, both as a practical need to focus the work of managing society, and strategically, that they see that they cannot allow any other movement to grow, hence suppression/management starting at organized religion, and anything else that gets viral or organized. In this sense, it is easily seen as a defensive measure, both internally and externally, trying to prevent anything from growing to another concentration of power. Interesting perspective on the collective motivating trauma. It almost seems that for the Chinese, it was poverty and being overrun by outside forces, for the westerners, especially Americans, it was excessive govt -- the US was literally founded by those escaping govt persecution. So the core motivating fears are at the opposite end of the spectrum. I like your distinction on the process/results legitimacy/illegitimacy views; it certainly shows how Chinese can see their govt as legitimate. and the CCP has largely delivered increasing prosperity for the last decades. However, when the govt fails to deliver, how does that get fixed? In (functioning) democracies, a govt that fails to deliver even a little bit gets voted out. In China, it seems the only choice would be to endure a non-delivering govt, or a new revolution... Churchill's comment comes to mind: "Democracy is the worst form of govt, except for all others.". The best, while it lasts, is a benign dictatorship where the leader is successfully working for the people. The problem is that nothing guarantees the success or motivation. How do they plan to ensure succession and that the party works for the people, successfully? It seems that the anti-corruption push might be a good thing, but from here, I have no idea if that was genuinely rooting out corruption, or consolidating power, or both. (They certainly seem to have little control of shadow banking, etc., which could be an existential threat). Also interesting and a bit funny that the Party sees that it can't compete with western media. Not surprising, but not evident from here either until you mentioned it (I'd be pretty intimidated too). Considering that the firewall is generally known and accepted, how easy and common is it to evade it? Can everyone do it trivially, or does it take a lot of effort? What are typical penalties and how, and how often, are they enforced? What is the result - is discussion of yesterday's Financial Times, New York Times, Washington Post, etc. common, occasional, or all underground, or does no one care about them?

FooBarWidget 5y ago
(Part 1) Okay this is complicated to explain to a western perspective so I have to split my answer in multiple parts. First, about China's political system. China is often described as totalitarian or a dictatorship. And certainly there is less political freedom than in many western countries. But "totalitarian/dictatorship" doesn't accurately describe it: it's better described as a political meritocracy. China's system has: - representation - voting (in a hierarchical manner) - consultation of the people (this one has become very big nowadays) - multiple parties (though CCP leads the pack, the other parties aren't empty zombies either) This interview with professor Daniel A. Bell, dean at School of Political Science and Public Administration of Shandong University, explains how the system works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZzlPoapB4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZzlPoapB4 (full disclosure: interview by CGTN, Chinese state media) At 13:30 he explains why it makes no sense to lump China together with the likes of North Korea and Saudi Arabia. An important distinction between the Chinese system and western systems, is that there is no separation of powers ala Trias Politica, in which different bodies and parties limit each others' power. Instead, the Chinese system is much more about collaboration, while at the same time the CCP stays firmly in power. A forced unity, if you will. China's voting system is hierarchical. People vote for a representative at the village level. Those representatives vote for even higher levels. Here is a first-hand account by David Fishman, who is an expert on China's energy sector. https://twitter.com/pretentiouswhat/status/1428397761142018048 https://twitter.com/pretentiouswhat/status/14283977611420180... During his holidays he met a village leader who has 90% election approval rating because he works hard for the benefit of his village. This thread describes how that village leader works, and how this village leader's attitude differs from higher-level governors that tend to be careerists. Fishman also says that in the next village, local democracy has unfortunately not resulted in a good representative. Voting bubbles up to the top legislative body, the National People's Congress (NPC). This body makes national laws. Here is a good explanation video by Einar Tangen, political commentator who advised US, South Korean and Chinese governments (again full disclosure: he's hosted by CGTN): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CpiLcLOTSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CpiLcLOTSg The NPC actively consults lower levels, all the way down to the village level. For example, all new proposals are published through newspapers and people are solicted for opinions. See also this thread: https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1208042661136850944 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/120804266113685094... There are 8 parties in China. But their relationship is not antagonistic, i.e. they don't fight for which party gets in power. The voting system selects representatives (people), not parties. The NPC consists of people from multiple parties, though in practice the CCP is the biggest party. Government officials (including the president) are not selected through voting, but through meritocracy. They are promoted to a higher level (e.g. city -> provincial) based on how well they perform against KPIs. Promotion comes with relocation so that you get to experience (and must prove yourself in) different contexts: governing Shanghai is very different from governing the province of Guangdong. This ties in with the "talk is cheap" concept: rather than selecting based on popularity, people would rather see that you prove yourself for 30 years and that you're not full of shit. Xi Jingping began as a village official, he literally had to work in poop (installing a methane tank in a village) early in his multi-decade career. Here are two interesting threads which describe the promotion process: https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1305784641262026752 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/130578464126202675... (a general description) and https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1306991115820695554 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/130699111582069555... (a case study of Hu Chunhua's career, who's the vice premier) This is why Fishman talks about "careerists". Sometimes the interests of the province-level governor's career conflict with the interests of the local village. So the NPC is similar to a parliament. Unlike western parliaments, the NPC's role is not to keep the power of the executive body in check, i.e. they can't oust the president (formally they can but there are technicalities why in practice they can't). Instead, the executive body and the legislative body collaborate more closely than in western systems. In western systems, politicians make proposals as an expression of ideology, and politicians do not have to be qualified in terms of skill or experience. It's the bureaucrats' jobs to implement new ideas. In the Chinese system, politicians consult bureaucrats a lot more, and decisions are made in collaboration rather than "thrown over the wall". As I said, the CCP is the largest party and the NPC can't oust the CCP president. But that doesn't mean the CCP deprives non-CCP members from having a say. They have a body called the CPPCC (Political Consultative Conference) through which they actively consult non-CCP members (so people who either belong to other parties, or don't have an affiliation with any party) for political advice. Even though it "merely" has an advisory role and does not have binding powers, the CCP actively makes use of this body for advice on major political and social issues.

by toss1 5y ago

FooBarWidget 5y ago

(Part 1) Okay this is complicated to explain to a western perspective so I have to split my answer in multiple parts. First, about China's political system. China is often described as totalitarian or a dictatorship. And certainly there is less political freedom than in many western countries. But "totalitarian/dictatorship" doesn't accurately describe it: it's better described as a political meritocracy. China's system has: - representation - voting (in a hierarchical manner) - consultation of the people (this one has become very big nowadays) - multiple parties (though CCP leads the pack, the other parties aren't empty zombies either) This interview with professor Daniel A. Bell, dean at School of Political Science and Public Administration of Shandong University, explains how the system works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZzlPoapB4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZzlPoapB4 (full disclosure: interview by CGTN, Chinese state media) At 13:30 he explains why it makes no sense to lump China together with the likes of North Korea and Saudi Arabia. An important distinction between the Chinese system and western systems, is that there is no separation of powers ala Trias Politica, in which different bodies and parties limit each others' power. Instead, the Chinese system is much more about collaboration, while at the same time the CCP stays firmly in power. A forced unity, if you will. China's voting system is hierarchical. People vote for a representative at the village level. Those representatives vote for even higher levels. Here is a first-hand account by David Fishman, who is an expert on China's energy sector. https://twitter.com/pretentiouswhat/status/1428397761142018048 https://twitter.com/pretentiouswhat/status/14283977611420180... During his holidays he met a village leader who has 90% election approval rating because he works hard for the benefit of his village. This thread describes how that village leader works, and how this village leader's attitude differs from higher-level governors that tend to be careerists. Fishman also says that in the next village, local democracy has unfortunately not resulted in a good representative. Voting bubbles up to the top legislative body, the National People's Congress (NPC). This body makes national laws. Here is a good explanation video by Einar Tangen, political commentator who advised US, South Korean and Chinese governments (again full disclosure: he's hosted by CGTN): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CpiLcLOTSg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CpiLcLOTSg The NPC actively consults lower levels, all the way down to the village level. For example, all new proposals are published through newspapers and people are solicted for opinions. See also this thread: https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1208042661136850944 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/120804266113685094... There are 8 parties in China. But their relationship is not antagonistic, i.e. they don't fight for which party gets in power. The voting system selects representatives (people), not parties. The NPC consists of people from multiple parties, though in practice the CCP is the biggest party. Government officials (including the president) are not selected through voting, but through meritocracy. They are promoted to a higher level (e.g. city -> provincial) based on how well they perform against KPIs. Promotion comes with relocation so that you get to experience (and must prove yourself in) different contexts: governing Shanghai is very different from governing the province of Guangdong. This ties in with the "talk is cheap" concept: rather than selecting based on popularity, people would rather see that you prove yourself for 30 years and that you're not full of shit. Xi Jingping began as a village official, he literally had to work in poop (installing a methane tank in a village) early in his multi-decade career. Here are two interesting threads which describe the promotion process: https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1305784641262026752 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/130578464126202675... (a general description) and https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/1306991115820695554 https://twitter.com/thinking_panda/status/130699111582069555... (a case study of Hu Chunhua's career, who's the vice premier) This is why Fishman talks about "careerists". Sometimes the interests of the province-level governor's career conflict with the interests of the local village. So the NPC is similar to a parliament. Unlike western parliaments, the NPC's role is not to keep the power of the executive body in check, i.e. they can't oust the president (formally they can but there are technicalities why in practice they can't). Instead, the executive body and the legislative body collaborate more closely than in western systems. In western systems, politicians make proposals as an expression of ideology, and politicians do not have to be qualified in terms of skill or experience. It's the bureaucrats' jobs to implement new ideas. In the Chinese system, politicians consult bureaucrats a lot more, and decisions are made in collaboration rather than "thrown over the wall". As I said, the CCP is the largest party and the NPC can't oust the CCP president. But that doesn't mean the CCP deprives non-CCP members from having a say. They have a body called the CPPCC (Political Consultative Conference) through which they actively consult non-CCP members (so people who either belong to other parties, or don't have an affiliation with any party) for political advice. Even though it "merely" has an advisory role and does not have binding powers, the CCP actively makes use of this body for advice on major political and social issues.