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It's interesting to think of religion as a societal tool that has co-evolved along with humanity. Societies with more beneficial religions would prosper and so

It's interesting to think of religion as a societal tool that has co-evolved along with humanity. Societies with more beneficial religions would prosper and societies with less beneficial religious would die out. It's thus no surprise that the religions that survived until the present day promote human survival. For example, it's no accident that most major religions heavily encourage their followers to have a lot of kids.

estaseuropano 5y ago
I would warmly recommend the last chapter(s) of 'The Selfish Gene'. Now an aged book but still largely up to date. In those last chapter(s) Dawkins invented the word meme as analogy to gene: a meme is a self-replicating piece of information. Like genes that are successful (in the environment they are in) propagate so do memes that are successful. Religion is the ultimate meme complex, it is a set of ideas that lives 'on top of' us and as long as it doesn't kill its host it may spread further. In that sense, while I would guess at minimum religion can't kill its host, it does from this logic not necessarily benefit the host. An aggressively missionising or crusading religion might outcompete one that is peaceful and better for its host. And even a peaceful variant (see original Buddhism or zen Buddhism) might evolve into an aggressive, exclusive and murderous ones (see Buddhist monks in Myanmar firing up and demanding the genocide of the mostly muslim rohingya ethnic group).
- ggggtez 5y ago
  The articles premise that Americans acted kinder for a little while after doing some Buddhist meditation.... Completely ignoring the fact that Buddhism has extremists just like other religions... The people didn't act kinder because of Buddhism. The experimental setup primed them to act in a certain way.
- exporectomy 5y ago
  I don't think you have correct examples of memes not benefiting their hosts. Those are examples of them not benefiting other people who aren't the hosts. A better example would be something like martyrdom. A religion that's perfect for its host might turn out to be one that exterminates or enslaves all non-hosts - if it could somehow achieve that without sacrificing its own hosts.
iammisc 5y ago
Chesterton's fence comes to mind
vmception 5y ago
and also heavily penalize suicide, promoting self preservation instincts! allowing proponents to fall back on many options making suicide more of a non option
klipt 5y ago
> For example, it's no accident that most major religions heavily encourage their followers to have a lot of kids. I noticed looking at my family tree, that basically all the secular branches have below replacement fertility, while the more religious branches have above replacement. Ironically it seems secularism is the ultimate proselytizing ideology, it seems it can't grow its own base through reproduction, it can only tempt the religious to abandon their religion and enjoy secular freedoms with fewer responsibilities (like fewer kids) - but it has to repeat this process at every generation to survive. Also ironic that secular society holds up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion, yet it seems evolution itself favors the religious with more descendents!
- vmception 5y ago
  How does secular society hold up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion? I don’t really see the relation. Some major religions have a creation story that relies on spontaneous creation and found it really important to not consider anything else. But what is secular society proposing exactly?
  - popcube 5y ago
    science theory do not offer any moral guide. we exist because our ancient was cruel do not mean we should be cruel. we got intellengence, we can chose we want.
  - qazpot 5y ago
    > How does secular society hold up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion? The so called "secular society" will not be able to digest a moral system based on theory of evolution.
sali0 5y ago
I used to be a very hard headed atheist until I read the book "The Secrets of our Success" by Joseph Heinlein. That book speaks of how culture evolved along with genetics, and it made me realize how important tradition and religion really are to society. I am still atheist, but now very much encourage religious people to stay with their faith and continue their worship. There are definitely downsides to religion, but ultimately they encourage strong communal and familial values, which I think are very lacking in my generation.
- roenxi 5y ago
  Same boat. > There are definitely downsides to religion... Pretty minor ones. The basic concepts are well battle tested good ideas. Saying religion is bad is like saying democratic politics is bad - no, it is great because even when horrible people are in charge the fundamental positive influence of the institution persists.
  - rlt 5y ago
    > Pretty minor ones. Well, except for all the violence committed in the name of various religions over the millennia. Maybe it balances out, but I wouldn’t say it’s minor.
    - eitland 5y ago
      Look at staunch atheists such as Stalin and you'll find that it has been not only balanced out but far in favour of many religions.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        That was in the name of communism though, not in the name of atheism. They viewed religion as just another corporation used to oppress workers. If the argument is that communism is just as bad as religions then sure I'll buy it.
        5y ago
asdff 5y ago
The way I see it, the rise of the chieftan and shaman go hand and hand. Listen to my orders, bring me resources, make war with who I please, for I am your leader and your living god, and they are the unknown other who aren't like us and don't believe what we believe about the universe. For all of our available history, this was the case. Tribalism. In my view, early bands of humans who weren't following a charismatic leader, who weren't following a strong religious practice, were killed off by those bands of humans who did follow the word of a charismatic leader who assured their followers that the divine itself were guiding their decision making. Fast forward though millions of years of evolution, and of course we are predisposed to religion, to xenophobia, to answering some call of duty and dying in someone else war. Our cultist ancestors killed off anyone they came across who didn't follow with this program. This behavior of humans hasn't even gone away today, its so entrenched.

estaseuropano 5y ago

I would warmly recommend the last chapter(s) of 'The Selfish Gene'. Now an aged book but still largely up to date. In those last chapter(s) Dawkins invented the word meme as analogy to gene: a meme is a self-replicating piece of information. Like genes that are successful (in the environment they are in) propagate so do memes that are successful. Religion is the ultimate meme complex, it is a set of ideas that lives 'on top of' us and as long as it doesn't kill its host it may spread further. In that sense, while I would guess at minimum religion can't kill its host, it does from this logic not necessarily benefit the host. An aggressively missionising or crusading religion might outcompete one that is peaceful and better for its host. And even a peaceful variant (see original Buddhism or zen Buddhism) might evolve into an aggressive, exclusive and murderous ones (see Buddhist monks in Myanmar firing up and demanding the genocide of the mostly muslim rohingya ethnic group).

ggggtez 5y ago
The articles premise that Americans acted kinder for a little while after doing some Buddhist meditation.... Completely ignoring the fact that Buddhism has extremists just like other religions... The people didn't act kinder because of Buddhism. The experimental setup primed them to act in a certain way.
exporectomy 5y ago
I don't think you have correct examples of memes not benefiting their hosts. Those are examples of them not benefiting other people who aren't the hosts. A better example would be something like martyrdom. A religion that's perfect for its host might turn out to be one that exterminates or enslaves all non-hosts - if it could somehow achieve that without sacrificing its own hosts.

iammisc 5y ago

Chesterton's fence comes to mind

vmception 5y ago

and also heavily penalize suicide, promoting self preservation instincts! allowing proponents to fall back on many options making suicide more of a non option

klipt 5y ago

> For example, it's no accident that most major religions heavily encourage their followers to have a lot of kids. I noticed looking at my family tree, that basically all the secular branches have below replacement fertility, while the more religious branches have above replacement. Ironically it seems secularism is the ultimate proselytizing ideology, it seems it can't grow its own base through reproduction, it can only tempt the religious to abandon their religion and enjoy secular freedoms with fewer responsibilities (like fewer kids) - but it has to repeat this process at every generation to survive. Also ironic that secular society holds up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion, yet it seems evolution itself favors the religious with more descendents!

vmception 5y ago
How does secular society hold up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion? I don’t really see the relation. Some major religions have a creation story that relies on spontaneous creation and found it really important to not consider anything else. But what is secular society proposing exactly?
- popcube 5y ago
  science theory do not offer any moral guide. we exist because our ancient was cruel do not mean we should be cruel. we got intellengence, we can chose we want.
- qazpot 5y ago
  > How does secular society hold up the theory of evolution as a reason we no longer need religion? The so called "secular society" will not be able to digest a moral system based on theory of evolution.

sali0 5y ago

I used to be a very hard headed atheist until I read the book "The Secrets of our Success" by Joseph Heinlein. That book speaks of how culture evolved along with genetics, and it made me realize how important tradition and religion really are to society. I am still atheist, but now very much encourage religious people to stay with their faith and continue their worship. There are definitely downsides to religion, but ultimately they encourage strong communal and familial values, which I think are very lacking in my generation.

roenxi 5y ago
Same boat. > There are definitely downsides to religion... Pretty minor ones. The basic concepts are well battle tested good ideas. Saying religion is bad is like saying democratic politics is bad - no, it is great because even when horrible people are in charge the fundamental positive influence of the institution persists.
- rlt 5y ago
  > Pretty minor ones. Well, except for all the violence committed in the name of various religions over the millennia. Maybe it balances out, but I wouldn’t say it’s minor.
  - eitland 5y ago
    Look at staunch atheists such as Stalin and you'll find that it has been not only balanced out but far in favour of many religions.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      That was in the name of communism though, not in the name of atheism. They viewed religion as just another corporation used to oppress workers. If the argument is that communism is just as bad as religions then sure I'll buy it.
      - 5y ago

asdff 5y ago

The way I see it, the rise of the chieftan and shaman go hand and hand. Listen to my orders, bring me resources, make war with who I please, for I am your leader and your living god, and they are the unknown other who aren't like us and don't believe what we believe about the universe. For all of our available history, this was the case. Tribalism. In my view, early bands of humans who weren't following a charismatic leader, who weren't following a strong religious practice, were killed off by those bands of humans who did follow the word of a charismatic leader who assured their followers that the divine itself were guiding their decision making. Fast forward though millions of years of evolution, and of course we are predisposed to religion, to xenophobia, to answering some call of duty and dying in someone else war. Our cultist ancestors killed off anyone they came across who didn't follow with this program. This behavior of humans hasn't even gone away today, its so entrenched.