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> - in Italy workers protection laws are very strong and it is an even stronger political topic, there are entire regions depending on the production chain of l

by mmarq 5y ago

> - in Italy workers protection laws are very strong and it is an even stronger political topic, there are entire regions depending on the production chain of luxury Italian brands. Reconversion is not as easy as it looks. The main problem is not workers protection, which are quite stronger in Germany, but historical lack of innovation. The government gifted billions to the Italian automotive industry just to keep factories open, not to innovate or produce good cars. The result is an automotive sector that requires special exemptions otherwise it is at risk of dying. The expertise required to build a factory of high quality batteries probably doesn’t even exist in Italy and attracting engineers from abroad is extremely hard if the entry level salary of a German engineer is higher than the total compensation or an Italian engineer with 10 years of experience.

peoplefromibiza 5y ago
> The main problem is not workers protection, which are quite stronger in Germany, but historical lack of innovation As I've said, job retention is an even stronger political topic. nobody here wants to lose consent over cutting jobs. Lack of innovation is just the consequence of a very conservative work force. > and attracting engineers from abroad is extremely hard if the entry level salary That, exactly. It's not going to happen soon, even though it is technically feasible, it is hard to put the wheels in motion. Paraphrasing Charles M. Schulz: I love living in Italy and Italian life style, it's public opinion I can't stand. I am lucky enough to not have to deal with that daily.
- mmarq 5y ago
  > As I've said, job retention is an even stronger political topic. > nobody here wants to lose consent over cutting jobs. I think there are a lot of misconceptions on workers protection in Italy. While older workers are protected, if they work in companies with more than 15 employees, this is not generally true anymore. > Lack of innovation is just the consequence of a very conservative work force. A huge number of people are hired with temporary contracts that are renewed yearly or even more often. Others are hired through body rental agencies, many others are effectively employed "at-will". Unpaid overtime is the norm. To be clear: this is true for engineers as well as for cleaners. These people can't be expected to produce any innovation. In the meanwhile, in political debates we pretend that Italian companies do not innovate and can't pay Western European salaries because they can't fire people.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    > In the meanwhile, in political debates we pretend that Italian companies do not innovate and can't pay Western European salaries because they can't fire people. Thanks for the comment. I agree with you completely, worker protection doesn't hurdle innovation. The trend towards less protections has been going on since the 90s when I entered the active workforce in Italy and personally I've rarely worked under the full protection of the law until recently. As a freelancer in the tech sector I always had above average salaries, I can't complain, my gripe is the majority of the work force consider a job something that the state must provide indefinitely, even when the financial returns are not there see Alitalia and FIAT as an example. The solution is not IMO less guarantees for the workers, but incentives for continuing education and subsidies to sustain people that lose their job to help them be back on track. We have a bit of both, but not enough and not fairly distributed, while guaranteed workers refuse to learn new things because "it's not written in the contract" and there's almost nothing the employer can do to make them. So we are basically incentivizing people to get a job and never have to grow with the job or hire people in the public as a way to keep unoccupied people as low as possible as a form of subsidy in disguise. The rest is on its own, especially the younger generations. But there are many innovative companies in Italy, for example in aerospace or structural engineering (bridges, dams, etc. )

by mmarq 5y ago

peoplefromibiza 5y ago

> The main problem is not workers protection, which are quite stronger in Germany, but historical lack of innovation As I've said, job retention is an even stronger political topic. nobody here wants to lose consent over cutting jobs. Lack of innovation is just the consequence of a very conservative work force. > and attracting engineers from abroad is extremely hard if the entry level salary That, exactly. It's not going to happen soon, even though it is technically feasible, it is hard to put the wheels in motion. Paraphrasing Charles M. Schulz: I love living in Italy and Italian life style, it's public opinion I can't stand. I am lucky enough to not have to deal with that daily.

mmarq 5y ago
> As I've said, job retention is an even stronger political topic. > nobody here wants to lose consent over cutting jobs. I think there are a lot of misconceptions on workers protection in Italy. While older workers are protected, if they work in companies with more than 15 employees, this is not generally true anymore. > Lack of innovation is just the consequence of a very conservative work force. A huge number of people are hired with temporary contracts that are renewed yearly or even more often. Others are hired through body rental agencies, many others are effectively employed "at-will". Unpaid overtime is the norm. To be clear: this is true for engineers as well as for cleaners. These people can't be expected to produce any innovation. In the meanwhile, in political debates we pretend that Italian companies do not innovate and can't pay Western European salaries because they can't fire people.
- peoplefromibiza 5y ago
  > In the meanwhile, in political debates we pretend that Italian companies do not innovate and can't pay Western European salaries because they can't fire people. Thanks for the comment. I agree with you completely, worker protection doesn't hurdle innovation. The trend towards less protections has been going on since the 90s when I entered the active workforce in Italy and personally I've rarely worked under the full protection of the law until recently. As a freelancer in the tech sector I always had above average salaries, I can't complain, my gripe is the majority of the work force consider a job something that the state must provide indefinitely, even when the financial returns are not there see Alitalia and FIAT as an example. The solution is not IMO less guarantees for the workers, but incentives for continuing education and subsidies to sustain people that lose their job to help them be back on track. We have a bit of both, but not enough and not fairly distributed, while guaranteed workers refuse to learn new things because "it's not written in the contract" and there's almost nothing the employer can do to make them. So we are basically incentivizing people to get a job and never have to grow with the job or hire people in the public as a way to keep unoccupied people as low as possible as a form of subsidy in disguise. The rest is on its own, especially the younger generations. But there are many innovative companies in Italy, for example in aerospace or structural engineering (bridges, dams, etc. )