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Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. There's n

Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. There's no system that will perfectly allow people to both find value and meaning in their world AND also promote totally free action of others. Thus we live in a contemporary world of non-religious people seeking out value (look at the current obsession in Silicon Valley with Stoicism, mindfulness, pyschadelics, etc). But Silicon Valley also tells their people that they can't use those methods to find an actual belief system of values. It's like, definitely always look for meaning and value in the universe, we like that. But, don't find it and a be bold about it. Catholics are against birth control because we're for a world in which human life is nourished, valued, and lifted up within the family. Not that it's seen as a problem to be dealt with. A knock on impact of that mentality is the sex becomes seen as a sacred act of deep value to humanity, an act with profound power and responsibility. Almost no Catholics suggest that we legally outlaw birth control. We recognize that fundamentally free agency should be left to moral agents (unless it cause a direct moral hazard to others like abortion, theft, dishonesty, etc). But why would we change our view on reproduction and the family? Moreso, birth control doesn't even do that great of a job at slower birth rates in developing nations.

jl6 5y ago
> Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. You could treat it as a learning opportunity. Carry on doing the good stuff and stop doing the bad stuff?
- Veen 5y ago
  Except, of course, they don't think the "bad stuff" is bad. They think the good stuff (contraception) is bad. The Pope can support climate change action because it doesn't really touch on Catholic beliefs, whereas contraception does.
unknown_apostle 5y ago
Btw, the Catholic Church is not against birth control because it wants to fill up the planet with people. The Church is obliged to teach that sex is supposed to be about a man and a woman taking part in God's ecstatic act of creation, a selfless act of love. Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of pleasure. This is why the Church is not against quite effective natural methods like NFP, because in this method it's the people who change their own behaviour, based on a natural cycle. It's quite effective but does not close fertility in a mechanical way. Second, if people were really listening to Jesus Christ and the Church, much more people would hear a calling to lead a consecrated life, as a priest or a monk or a nun.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  > Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of pleasure. Nope. I've had 3 kids. I have emotionally and rationally concluded that having another child is inappropriate; it is a form of excess and inbalance. So, I want to have sex for love now. Really, you are going to tell me that, by stopping at 3, I am going against the will of god? Also, what's up with believing in a God-man that supposedly rules over 100 billion galaxies and yet is so damn petty about human sex lives and other foolishness? I'm all good with the importance of spiritual fulfilment, an underlying faith in an ineffable oneness of the cosmos, and even in the notion that belief in the eternal Logos gives eternal life (i.e., if i believe that my self is vastly bigger than my bodily identity, then "I" don't die with our body). It's comforting and rational. But damn. Belief in a petty, spiteful God-man? How can people perpetuate such an idea? Just to scare children?
  - leeoniya 5y ago
    > But damn. Belief in a petty, spiteful God-man? How can people perpetuate such an idea? Just to scare children? this is something i've always found hilarious. he's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing. he created us, and now demands our love, adoration, and is jealous. is he lonely? is there nothing else to do in this universe except be concerned with how we live our lives? punish us with plagues? he gave us free will to then judge us in the end based on how restrained we were in exercising it? it's silliness.
neither_color 5y ago
Thus we live in a contemporary world of non-religious people seeking out value (look at the current obsession in Silicon Valley with Stoicism, mindfulness, pyschadelics, etc). But Silicon Valley also tells their people that they can't use those methods to find an actual belief system of values. It's like, definitely always look for meaning and value in the universe, we like that. But, don't find it and a be bold about it. Once you're intermittent fasting, microdosing, cutting out meat and/or processed foods from your diet, going on "dopamine fasts" without your phone/PC, avoiding tobacco + alcohol because of the harm it does to your body, choosing the media you watch to avoid negativity, confessing to your therapist regularly, seeking out deeper meaningful relationships with people, meditating every day, etc you might as well be religious.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  > you might as well be religious. Totally. I'm excited about efforts to buy old churches to repurpose them to serve the spiritual and cultural needs like you list. It's like, rationally speaking, we need spiritual wellbeing, but don't need the baggage of the world religions.
  - neither_color 5y ago
    That’s been tried before, during the French Revolution. It didn’t go so well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      If at first you don't succeed at creating secular spirituality...
- HKH2 5y ago
  You seem to be presupposing that you can choose to believe, yet is not genuine belief the sum of the thoughts/experiences in one's mind?
dr_dshiv 5y ago
> There's no system that will perfectly allow people to both find value and meaning in their world AND also promote totally free action of others. Pretty stoked with the current state of liberal democratic market systems, actually. Way better than any other system, especially the theocracies. But, I am missing social and cultural capital. I am trying to find this in academic scholarship in western esotericism and psychedelics. It works out ok, but then, you know, it can alienate others. But at least it is rationally and emotionally fulfilling.
analog31 5y ago
>>>> Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. >>>> There's no system that will perfectly allow people to both find value and meaning in their world AND also promote totally free action of others. In turn, that's the curse of infallibility. >>>> Catholics are against birth control because we're for a world in which human life is nourished, valued, and lifted up within the family. Not that it's seen as a problem to be dealt with. A knock on impact of that mentality is the sex becomes seen as a sacred act of deep value to humanity, an act with profound power and responsibility. A way out of this dilemma is to acknowledge that sexuality and reproduction are not supernatural phenomena, therefore there is no need for them to be a topic of theological interest, any more than the orbits of the planets or the evolution of species. >>>> Almost no Catholics suggest that we legally outlaw birth control. Cynically, I wonder if that's strategic -- to avoid alienating voters until abortion is outlawed. Also (I took "Catholic classes" when I got married), birth control is portrayed as causing abortion.

jl6 5y ago

> Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. You could treat it as a learning opportunity. Carry on doing the good stuff and stop doing the bad stuff?

Veen 5y ago
Except, of course, they don't think the "bad stuff" is bad. They think the good stuff (contraception) is bad. The Pope can support climate change action because it doesn't really touch on Catholic beliefs, whereas contraception does.

unknown_apostle 5y ago

Btw, the Catholic Church is not against birth control because it wants to fill up the planet with people. The Church is obliged to teach that sex is supposed to be about a man and a woman taking part in God's ecstatic act of creation, a selfless act of love. Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of pleasure. This is why the Church is not against quite effective natural methods like NFP, because in this method it's the people who change their own behaviour, based on a natural cycle. It's quite effective but does not close fertility in a mechanical way. Second, if people were really listening to Jesus Christ and the Church, much more people would hear a calling to lead a consecrated life, as a priest or a monk or a nun.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
> Sex without being open to life is porn: without the act of self giving and preparedness to receive children, you are left with a corrupted, self-directed form of pleasure. Nope. I've had 3 kids. I have emotionally and rationally concluded that having another child is inappropriate; it is a form of excess and inbalance. So, I want to have sex for love now. Really, you are going to tell me that, by stopping at 3, I am going against the will of god? Also, what's up with believing in a God-man that supposedly rules over 100 billion galaxies and yet is so damn petty about human sex lives and other foolishness? I'm all good with the importance of spiritual fulfilment, an underlying faith in an ineffable oneness of the cosmos, and even in the notion that belief in the eternal Logos gives eternal life (i.e., if i believe that my self is vastly bigger than my bodily identity, then "I" don't die with our body). It's comforting and rational. But damn. Belief in a petty, spiteful God-man? How can people perpetuate such an idea? Just to scare children?
- leeoniya 5y ago
  > But damn. Belief in a petty, spiteful God-man? How can people perpetuate such an idea? Just to scare children? this is something i've always found hilarious. he's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing. he created us, and now demands our love, adoration, and is jealous. is he lonely? is there nothing else to do in this universe except be concerned with how we live our lives? punish us with plagues? he gave us free will to then judge us in the end based on how restrained we were in exercising it? it's silliness.

neither_color 5y ago

Thus we live in a contemporary world of non-religious people seeking out value (look at the current obsession in Silicon Valley with Stoicism, mindfulness, pyschadelics, etc). But Silicon Valley also tells their people that they can't use those methods to find an actual belief system of values. It's like, definitely always look for meaning and value in the universe, we like that. But, don't find it and a be bold about it. Once you're intermittent fasting, microdosing, cutting out meat and/or processed foods from your diet, going on "dopamine fasts" without your phone/PC, avoiding tobacco + alcohol because of the harm it does to your body, choosing the media you watch to avoid negativity, confessing to your therapist regularly, seeking out deeper meaningful relationships with people, meditating every day, etc you might as well be religious.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
> you might as well be religious. Totally. I'm excited about efforts to buy old churches to repurpose them to serve the spiritual and cultural needs like you list. It's like, rationally speaking, we need spiritual wellbeing, but don't need the baggage of the world religions.
- neither_color 5y ago
  That’s been tried before, during the French Revolution. It didn’t go so well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    If at first you don't succeed at creating secular spirituality...
HKH2 5y ago
You seem to be presupposing that you can choose to believe, yet is not genuine belief the sum of the thoughts/experiences in one's mind?

dr_dshiv 5y ago

> There's no system that will perfectly allow people to both find value and meaning in their world AND also promote totally free action of others. Pretty stoked with the current state of liberal democratic market systems, actually. Way better than any other system, especially the theocracies. But, I am missing social and cultural capital. I am trying to find this in academic scholarship in western esotericism and psychedelics. It works out ok, but then, you know, it can alienate others. But at least it is rationally and emotionally fulfilling.

analog31 5y ago

>>>> Thus is the curse of being a religion. You do one thing that general society helps. And then they just criticize another piece of your belief system. >>>> There's no system that will perfectly allow people to both find value and meaning in their world AND also promote totally free action of others. In turn, that's the curse of infallibility. >>>> Catholics are against birth control because we're for a world in which human life is nourished, valued, and lifted up within the family. Not that it's seen as a problem to be dealt with. A knock on impact of that mentality is the sex becomes seen as a sacred act of deep value to humanity, an act with profound power and responsibility. A way out of this dilemma is to acknowledge that sexuality and reproduction are not supernatural phenomena, therefore there is no need for them to be a topic of theological interest, any more than the orbits of the planets or the evolution of species. >>>> Almost no Catholics suggest that we legally outlaw birth control. Cynically, I wonder if that's strategic -- to avoid alienating voters until abortion is outlawed. Also (I took "Catholic classes" when I got married), birth control is portrayed as causing abortion.