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A really great piece of writing. These problems have been growing, festering, for twenty years and we're only just waking up to it. One thing I take issue with

A really great piece of writing. These problems have been growing, festering, for twenty years and we're only just waking up to it. One thing I take issue with: > This electoral democracy still excludes the poorest and least capable in our society, who cannot keep up to date with politics and make it to the polling station to actually cast a ballot. We have to stop doing this. If we want to create some kind of common set of values that binds us together regardless of class, wealth, etc we also need to accept some things that we can collectively agree as positive or negative traits or values. Too often, middle class people infantilise the working class, refuse to accept that they have agency, and ascribe their lives and behaviour to externalities and societal injustice. This doesn't help anyone, it just reinforces the division of society and stops us seeing our neighbour (regardless of class, wealth, etc) as essentially the same as us. The poorest in our society can keep up-to-date with politics, and a lot of them do. All they need is a TV or radio, and the poorest in western society can get hold of one of these. If they don't, that's fine, I don't accept there's a moral imperative to do so if it's not your bag, but let's stop with this nonsense. Just go to hustings or the local meet of any political party and you'll meet people from all wealth brackets. Probably more of them poor than wealthy. So where does this idea that poor people can't keep up-to-date with politics come from? Any that want to can, and most do. Similar sentiments like: poor people can't be expected to read books, or eat vegetables, or go for walks, or tell their kids to do their homework, or help their kids to read, etc, etc. None of these things require money. Oh, but what about the institutional injustices, and the ways in which our society is configured such that poor people do not benefit from having those values instilled? And the fact that money stresses preclude other less critical concerns finding a time or place? Sorry, that's middle-class well-meaning crap, and it's helping to destroy any kind of cohesive set of shared values we once had.

epgui 5y ago
> Too often, middle class people infantilise the working class, refuse to accept that they have agency, and ascribe their lives and behaviour to externalities and societal injustice. This doesn't help anyone, it just reinforces the division of society and stops us seeing our neighbour (regardless of class, wealth, etc) as essentially the same as us. I disagree, at least to some degree. My counterpoint is to merely point to the “fundamental attribution bias” as being the usual direction of human cognitive biases. The general idea is to “enable” people to have more agency and to give them the tools and support they need to make informed, self-interested decisions. The idea is not to blame externalities directly.
GingerMidas 5y ago
> poor people can't be expected to read books, or eat vegetables, or go for walks, or tell their kids to do their homework, or help their kids to read, etc, etc. None of these things require money. Those things still require free time. Having these as values and being able to regularly practice them are two different things. I don't see how that fact is "well meaning crap".
- p1esk 5y ago
  Are you saying poor people have less free time than others?
  - badlucklottery 5y ago
    If you're talking about the working poor: 1. they often have multiple jobs since many jobs on the lower end don't pay a living wage. 2. they have longer commutes so they live in less expensive communities where their wages can go further. But those communities tend to have less available jobs overall. So, on average, yeah. Less free time for the working poor.
    - p1esk 5y ago
      This is where having hard data would help. Do the poor actually work multiple jobs? Do they actually have longer commutes? On average. And to be more specific, we can compare people who make 50k in bay area (poor) to people who make 200k (e.g. Silicon Volley SWEs frequently seen on HN).
- _hyn3 5y ago
  The average adult in the United States watches more than 4 hours of television per day, proving that most have both free time and a television. https://www.statista.com/chart/15224/daily-tv-consumption-by-us-adults/ https://www.statista.com/chart/15224/daily-tv-consumption-by... The decrease in television watching is actually among the more technically literate, not illiterate; according to Nielsen, younger people are watching streaming services instead of television.

epgui 5y ago

> Too often, middle class people infantilise the working class, refuse to accept that they have agency, and ascribe their lives and behaviour to externalities and societal injustice. This doesn't help anyone, it just reinforces the division of society and stops us seeing our neighbour (regardless of class, wealth, etc) as essentially the same as us. I disagree, at least to some degree. My counterpoint is to merely point to the “fundamental attribution bias” as being the usual direction of human cognitive biases. The general idea is to “enable” people to have more agency and to give them the tools and support they need to make informed, self-interested decisions. The idea is not to blame externalities directly.

GingerMidas 5y ago

> poor people can't be expected to read books, or eat vegetables, or go for walks, or tell their kids to do their homework, or help their kids to read, etc, etc. None of these things require money. Those things still require free time. Having these as values and being able to regularly practice them are two different things. I don't see how that fact is "well meaning crap".

p1esk 5y ago
Are you saying poor people have less free time than others?
- badlucklottery 5y ago
  If you're talking about the working poor: 1. they often have multiple jobs since many jobs on the lower end don't pay a living wage. 2. they have longer commutes so they live in less expensive communities where their wages can go further. But those communities tend to have less available jobs overall. So, on average, yeah. Less free time for the working poor.
  - p1esk 5y ago
    This is where having hard data would help. Do the poor actually work multiple jobs? Do they actually have longer commutes? On average. And to be more specific, we can compare people who make 50k in bay area (poor) to people who make 200k (e.g. Silicon Volley SWEs frequently seen on HN).
_hyn3 5y ago
The average adult in the United States watches more than 4 hours of television per day, proving that most have both free time and a television. https://www.statista.com/chart/15224/daily-tv-consumption-by-us-adults/ https://www.statista.com/chart/15224/daily-tv-consumption-by... The decrease in television watching is actually among the more technically literate, not illiterate; according to Nielsen, younger people are watching streaming services instead of television.