3 ms·

Free and "Opensource" for less then 5 users, to be more precise...what a stupid price-list.

by nix23 5y ago

capableweb 5y ago
It's free for less than 5 users and the "open source" part is open source no matter how many users you're using. Not sure where you get the part that it's not open source once you're above a certain number of users? The repository/code is the same for all plans: https://github.com/grommunio https://github.com/grommunio
- nix23 5y ago
  Again the price-list is pure stupidity. And limiting the usage of a "Opensource" product is even more stupid. >It's free for less than 5 users and the "open source" That's not how Free (yes it's AGPL) and Opensource Software works. In fact i am not even sure if one could do that under the GPL. Give me ONE single other FOSS Project where you have such a restriction (remember it's not a service but software, running on MY instance), restricting the USE and function of the Software on YOUR Computer was probably the first or second point to even invent the GPL.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    > Again the price-list is pure stupidity Could you try to specify why exactly you think so instead of just spewing your opinion without any sort of reasoning? > And limiting the usage of a "Opensource" product is even more stupid Again, why? You seem to be confusing the meaning of "free"/"gratis" with "open source". The code is public and released under the "GNU Affero General Public License", making it open source and even copy-left. What more can you ask for (besides "I WANT FREE/GRATIS SOFTWARE" which is what you seem to actually be annoyed about)
    - nix23 5y ago
      >Again, why? Limiting the USE of a opensource product is a stupid thing todo. The great thing about OSS is that your NOT dependent on a Manufacturer, but here you are if you have more than 5 users (that makes it even worse). IF your are truly OSS don't restrict your product on usage, but present a great Support-Team. This is not better then ANY Microsoft product with it's CAL's, but MS is probably not going bankrupt in the next 5 years, DONT artificially restrict the USE of your Product!
      - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
        It's doesn't limit the use of the software, it limits the use of their instance. The licence is GPL, you can use it the way you want on your own machine.
        omnicognate 5y ago
        It's not hosted afaict. They're selling support.
        nix23 5y ago
        >It's doesn't limit the use of the software, it limits the use of their instance. Same same, it's Not a Service but Software, so it's MY instance. >The licence is GPL, you can use it the way you want on your own machine. That's the problem..i cant (5 User limit)...and btw it's AGPL
        croes 5y ago
        Is the limit in open source code? If no, where is the problem, if yes, remove it, it's open source.
      - omnicognate 5y ago
        It is a bit weird. AFAICT this isn't a hosted service. It's AGPL code you host yourself, and yet as nix23 says, at https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/ there's: > Community > max. 5 user – free With no further explanation (the site isn't very clear generally). IANAL but I don't think you can do that with AGPL. If it's AGPL licensed and you're hosting it yourself you can use it for anything as long as you abide by the terms of the license (including the "Affero" bit). It would be different if this were (A)GPL code together with a hosted service you can use free with up to 5 users, but I think that's not what this is. Edit: The thing they're selling appears to be support and limiting free support to 5 users would be fine (and generous!) but they make it clear with Community you don't get any support so I don't see any basis for restricting the number of users.
  - solarengineer 5y ago
    I read it as limiting the number of users of the downloadable ISO or VM appliance from their website. The code itself is PHP (server-side), Javascript (browser-side), and Python (API). I didn't click through the other components.
    - omnicognate 5y ago
      They don't say anything to that effect, and I think they could only do that if they held the copyright to all the code (which I doubt they do) and released the ISO/VM under a different (non-GPL) license.
jorams 5y ago
It's straight up FOSS. What they're selling is support. I don't know if anyone responding here has read the rest of the Product page[1], but I thought it was quite clear: > In order to be able to use the features with support... > Our individual support services for the features of the product can be found below under ‘Packages & Pricing‘. The comparison table distinguishes between features with and without support, and "Support not included" in the part of the table that is just about support. They never mention selling anything but support. [1]: https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/
- omnicognate 5y ago
  Sure, but then they say "Community - Max 5 user - free" (on the page you link), and Community has no support. The point is they can't restrict the user count on a piece of AGPL software they aren't providing any hosting or support for. I suspect it's a mistake on the website tbh.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    What clause of the AGPL forbids this?
    - omnicognate 5y ago
      It's more that the AGPL allows you to use the software without any such restriction. If they license it under the AGPL you can use it with as many users as you want. In fact it requires that if you host an instance you make the code available to the users, for them to use/host/modify/distribute themselves (section 13, "Remote Network Interaction"). They could publish it under a modified AGPL, an "AGPL with user count restriction" of some kind (which wouldn't be AGPL at all - they would have to modify it heavily for it not to be a self-contradictory mess). However: A) They would need to own the copyright in all of the code involved so they can publish it under whatever license they want. To the extent their system contains GPL/AGPL code copyrighted by others (and I expect it does), distributing it under an incompatible license like this would be a copyright violation by them against the owners of that code. (This is in section 10, "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients", where it says "You may not impose any further restrictions on the exercise of the rights granted or affirmed under this License.") B) There is no indication they are attempting to do this, other than that one mention on pricing page, which I suspect is a mistake. The repos simply contain the AGPL license.
ABS 5y ago
never heard of this, it took me 3 clicks to find that: 1) "grommunio is an open source based groupware product with supported features and offers companies and users various packages as subscriptions." https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/ 2) the actual open source project grommunio is based on is called Gromox https://gromox.com/ https://gromox.com/
- nix23 5y ago
  Then don't click, but read would be the great idea -> Community Max 5 Users. https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/
  - croes 5y ago
    And what prevents you from downloading the code, compiling it yourself and using it for any number of users?
    - nix23 5y ago
      In the true spirit of opensource, make some barriers in your code.
      - croes 5y ago
        So the barrier is in the code or is it not?
        nix23 5y ago
        Is it a sensible thing todo then? It's completely senseless to implement such a restriction in a opensource software. What other GPL project thinks that's a good way to force someone to pay you?
        croes 5y ago
        You didn't answer the question. Is the 5 user limit part of the code in the repository?

Free and "Opensource" for less then 5 users, to be more precise...what a stupid price-list.

by nix23 5y ago

Free and "Opensource" for less then 5 users, to be more precise...what a stupid price-list.

It's free for less than 5 users and the "open source" part is open source no matter how many users you're using. Not sure where you get the part that it's not open source once you're above a certain number of users? The repository/code is the same for all plans: https://github.com/grommunio https://github.com/grommunio

nix23 5y ago
Again the price-list is pure stupidity. And limiting the usage of a "Opensource" product is even more stupid. >It's free for less than 5 users and the "open source" That's not how Free (yes it's AGPL) and Opensource Software works. In fact i am not even sure if one could do that under the GPL. Give me ONE single other FOSS Project where you have such a restriction (remember it's not a service but software, running on MY instance), restricting the USE and function of the Software on YOUR Computer was probably the first or second point to even invent the GPL.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > Again the price-list is pure stupidity Could you try to specify why exactly you think so instead of just spewing your opinion without any sort of reasoning? > And limiting the usage of a "Opensource" product is even more stupid Again, why? You seem to be confusing the meaning of "free"/"gratis" with "open source". The code is public and released under the "GNU Affero General Public License", making it open source and even copy-left. What more can you ask for (besides "I WANT FREE/GRATIS SOFTWARE" which is what you seem to actually be annoyed about)
  - nix23 5y ago
    >Again, why? Limiting the USE of a opensource product is a stupid thing todo. The great thing about OSS is that your NOT dependent on a Manufacturer, but here you are if you have more than 5 users (that makes it even worse). IF your are truly OSS don't restrict your product on usage, but present a great Support-Team. This is not better then ANY Microsoft product with it's CAL's, but MS is probably not going bankrupt in the next 5 years, DONT artificially restrict the USE of your Product!
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      It's doesn't limit the use of the software, it limits the use of their instance. The licence is GPL, you can use it the way you want on your own machine.
      - omnicognate 5y ago
        It's not hosted afaict. They're selling support.
      - nix23 5y ago
        >It's doesn't limit the use of the software, it limits the use of their instance. Same same, it's Not a Service but Software, so it's MY instance. >The licence is GPL, you can use it the way you want on your own machine. That's the problem..i cant (5 User limit)...and btw it's AGPL
        croes 5y ago
        Is the limit in open source code? If no, where is the problem, if yes, remove it, it's open source.
    - omnicognate 5y ago
      It is a bit weird. AFAICT this isn't a hosted service. It's AGPL code you host yourself, and yet as nix23 says, at https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/ there's: > Community > max. 5 user – free With no further explanation (the site isn't very clear generally). IANAL but I don't think you can do that with AGPL. If it's AGPL licensed and you're hosting it yourself you can use it for anything as long as you abide by the terms of the license (including the "Affero" bit). It would be different if this were (A)GPL code together with a hosted service you can use free with up to 5 users, but I think that's not what this is. Edit: The thing they're selling appears to be support and limiting free support to 5 users would be fine (and generous!) but they make it clear with Community you don't get any support so I don't see any basis for restricting the number of users.
- solarengineer 5y ago
  I read it as limiting the number of users of the downloadable ISO or VM appliance from their website. The code itself is PHP (server-side), Javascript (browser-side), and Python (API). I didn't click through the other components.
  - omnicognate 5y ago
    They don't say anything to that effect, and I think they could only do that if they held the copyright to all the code (which I doubt they do) and released the ISO/VM under a different (non-GPL) license.

jorams 5y ago

It's straight up FOSS. What they're selling is support. I don't know if anyone responding here has read the rest of the Product page[1], but I thought it was quite clear: > In order to be able to use the features with support... > Our individual support services for the features of the product can be found below under ‘Packages & Pricing‘. The comparison table distinguishes between features with and without support, and "Support not included" in the part of the table that is just about support. They never mention selling anything but support. [1]: https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/

omnicognate 5y ago
Sure, but then they say "Community - Max 5 user - free" (on the page you link), and Community has no support. The point is they can't restrict the user count on a piece of AGPL software they aren't providing any hosting or support for. I suspect it's a mistake on the website tbh.
- jagger27 5y ago
  What clause of the AGPL forbids this?
  - omnicognate 5y ago
    It's more that the AGPL allows you to use the software without any such restriction. If they license it under the AGPL you can use it with as many users as you want. In fact it requires that if you host an instance you make the code available to the users, for them to use/host/modify/distribute themselves (section 13, "Remote Network Interaction"). They could publish it under a modified AGPL, an "AGPL with user count restriction" of some kind (which wouldn't be AGPL at all - they would have to modify it heavily for it not to be a self-contradictory mess). However: A) They would need to own the copyright in all of the code involved so they can publish it under whatever license they want. To the extent their system contains GPL/AGPL code copyrighted by others (and I expect it does), distributing it under an incompatible license like this would be a copyright violation by them against the owners of that code. (This is in section 10, "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients", where it says "You may not impose any further restrictions on the exercise of the rights granted or affirmed under this License.") B) There is no indication they are attempting to do this, other than that one mention on pricing page, which I suspect is a mistake. The repos simply contain the AGPL license.

ABS 5y ago

never heard of this, it took me 3 clicks to find that: 1) "grommunio is an open source based groupware product with supported features and offers companies and users various packages as subscriptions." https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/ 2) the actual open source project grommunio is based on is called Gromox https://gromox.com/ https://gromox.com/

nix23 5y ago
Then don't click, but read would be the great idea -> Community Max 5 Users. https://grommunio.com/product/ https://grommunio.com/product/
- croes 5y ago
  And what prevents you from downloading the code, compiling it yourself and using it for any number of users?
  - nix23 5y ago
    In the true spirit of opensource, make some barriers in your code.
    - croes 5y ago
      So the barrier is in the code or is it not?
      - nix23 5y ago
        Is it a sensible thing todo then? It's completely senseless to implement such a restriction in a opensource software. What other GPL project thinks that's a good way to force someone to pay you?
        croes 5y ago
        You didn't answer the question. Is the 5 user limit part of the code in the repository?