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My experience living in Taiwan is that those terms may literally mean foreigner but their practical usage means white/western people. A native or black american

My experience living in Taiwan is that those terms may literally mean foreigner but their practical usage means white/western people. A native or black american would not be called that. Also, lao wai is the one they go for when they are angry or postering xenophobia amongst each other. I find it to be a needlessly othering term but I try to accept it as not said with explicitly bad intent.

ummwhat 5y ago
The best summary of the word that I've seen is that its a lot like "gringo". Its status as pejorative or descriptive or even endearing depends on how it's said and the context in which it is said and on the person saying it. World of difference between "ey gringo, since when you drink tecate" and "what you doing in our neighborhood gringo".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- seniorivn 5y ago
  would be wonderful if people thought the same about n word
thaumasiotes 5y ago
Well, the traditional insult is quite different, 洋鬼子. ("Foreign devils" is the traditional translation.) People who are looking to insult foreigners have no need to use the ordinary, non-insulting word. Though this may be less true in Taiwan; I think 洋鬼子 is fairly Maoist.
- garmaine 5y ago
  Correct that it is very different in Taiwan. But generally you're missing the point. (1) 老外 (lao wai) is an intrinsically othering term, and (2) it's generally applied by race rather than by national origin. It doesn't matter what the literal translation is. The point is about how the word is used. Here in California many Chinese-speaking transplants use the terms 老外 or 外國人 to refer to white Americans. I always correct them when they do--pointing out that they are the foreigners. It comes off as rude, but that's the point! No one likes to be ostracized or grouped based on the color of their skin, and that's precisely what they were doing when they used the term to refer to white people in the first place. If I move my life to China or Taiwan, how long do I have live there before I am no longer 老外? What about my kids who grow up there, speaking at a native level and calling the country their home. Are they 老外 too?
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > many Chinese-speaking transplants use the terms 老外 or 外國人 to refer to white Americans. I always correct them when they do--pointing out that they are the foreigners. Consistent with this, do you also insist that they refer to the USA as "中國"?
    - garmaine 5y ago
      I don’t see that as consistent. The USA isn’t the middle of the world by any measure.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        中 [inside] is the opposite of 外 [outside]. (Actually, there are several synonymous words which are opposites of 外, but in the 中国 / 外国 contrast, the opposite of 外 is obviously 中.)
        garmaine 5y ago
        My history may be off, but I believe that the Chinese named their country 中國 because they believed themselves the center of the world. Much like how the Romans named the Mediterranean (which means “middle sea”). The primary meaning of 中 is “middle” and it gains the meaning of “inside” by the geometric implication of the insides of something being that thing’s middle. 中國人 is a specific term of nationality. Likewise with 美國人. But 外國人 is different—it is defined only in relation to something else, as The Other. That’s fine in the context of passport control where your nationality matters, and you need to be in the foreigner line. But it’s not okay when we all live together in the same country, speaking the same language and with our kids in the same class in school, and you still refer to me as The Foreigner. Do you see the difference? Interestingly, A LOT of mainlanders don’t know to line up in the 外國人 line when they go through Taiwan’s passport control, and they get upset when they are told to switch. It happens literally every time I’m in the airport (at least pre-pandemic). I don’t know if this is a dialectical, cultural, or propaganda problem, but it seems related.

ummwhat 5y ago

The best summary of the word that I've seen is that its a lot like "gringo". Its status as pejorative or descriptive or even endearing depends on how it's said and the context in which it is said and on the person saying it. World of difference between "ey gringo, since when you drink tecate" and "what you doing in our neighborhood gringo".

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
seniorivn 5y ago
would be wonderful if people thought the same about n word

thaumasiotes 5y ago

Well, the traditional insult is quite different, 洋鬼子. ("Foreign devils" is the traditional translation.) People who are looking to insult foreigners have no need to use the ordinary, non-insulting word. Though this may be less true in Taiwan; I think 洋鬼子 is fairly Maoist.

garmaine 5y ago
Correct that it is very different in Taiwan. But generally you're missing the point. (1) 老外 (lao wai) is an intrinsically othering term, and (2) it's generally applied by race rather than by national origin. It doesn't matter what the literal translation is. The point is about how the word is used. Here in California many Chinese-speaking transplants use the terms 老外 or 外國人 to refer to white Americans. I always correct them when they do--pointing out that they are the foreigners. It comes off as rude, but that's the point! No one likes to be ostracized or grouped based on the color of their skin, and that's precisely what they were doing when they used the term to refer to white people in the first place. If I move my life to China or Taiwan, how long do I have live there before I am no longer 老外? What about my kids who grow up there, speaking at a native level and calling the country their home. Are they 老外 too?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > many Chinese-speaking transplants use the terms 老外 or 外國人 to refer to white Americans. I always correct them when they do--pointing out that they are the foreigners. Consistent with this, do you also insist that they refer to the USA as "中國"?
  - garmaine 5y ago
    I don’t see that as consistent. The USA isn’t the middle of the world by any measure.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      中 [inside] is the opposite of 外 [outside]. (Actually, there are several synonymous words which are opposites of 外, but in the 中国 / 外国 contrast, the opposite of 外 is obviously 中.)
      - garmaine 5y ago
        My history may be off, but I believe that the Chinese named their country 中國 because they believed themselves the center of the world. Much like how the Romans named the Mediterranean (which means “middle sea”). The primary meaning of 中 is “middle” and it gains the meaning of “inside” by the geometric implication of the insides of something being that thing’s middle. 中國人 is a specific term of nationality. Likewise with 美國人. But 外國人 is different—it is defined only in relation to something else, as The Other. That’s fine in the context of passport control where your nationality matters, and you need to be in the foreigner line. But it’s not okay when we all live together in the same country, speaking the same language and with our kids in the same class in school, and you still refer to me as The Foreigner. Do you see the difference? Interestingly, A LOT of mainlanders don’t know to line up in the 外國人 line when they go through Taiwan’s passport control, and they get upset when they are told to switch. It happens literally every time I’m in the airport (at least pre-pandemic). I don’t know if this is a dialectical, cultural, or propaganda problem, but it seems related.