4 ms·

Forgot the first and most important commandment: always force them to open. They will always low ball, so you know what they think of your skillset and you can

Forgot the first and most important commandment: always force them to open. They will always low ball, so you know what they think of your skillset and you can negotiate upward if they really want you. If you open you have nowhere to go but down.

LambdaComplex 5y ago
> Forgot the first and most important commandment: always force them to open Uh...that's literally the first one though? > Do not — I repeat, do not — give them a number. > What to do instead: Ask for the range they’re budgeted for the role.
- rubyist5eva 5y ago
  I’m talking about the actual negotiation. Asking for a range is good when deciding if I’m even going to bother spending my time interviewing but when the the actual offer is being made - always make them go first.
spaetzleesser 5y ago
I hear that advice often but I have had more success opening with a high number so the negotiation gets anchored within a certain range. I have never had much success negotiating an offer up by a significant amount.
- pineaux 5y ago
  this is exactly right. negotiating up is hard.
- querulous 5y ago
  the never give a number advice is good if you are early career and lack a track record or you have poor information with regards to your own value but terrible advice for most mid career developers who should have the tools to estimate their own worth (peers, levels.fyi, their current comp) opening with a high but not unthinkable number is way more likely to maximize your comp than playing games and refusing to give a number. the worst case is they deem you not worth it and stop the process but if you are confident in your worth that is a good outcome for you
  - wyclif 5y ago
    I think your attitude about this is too negative. Making them open is not "playing games" and serious companies don't regard it as play or jerking them around, they know it's just a part of negotiation.
- wyclif 5y ago
  The key is to not allow them to anchor your comp. Which leads right back to rule #1: never be opening.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
One of the problems with that is that it's like pulling teeth with every single company. If you're in a market like in Silicon Valley where companies know that good engineers can be expensive, this may be fine. However, if you're in a market where most companies will offer less than half your current compensation while still thinking they're paying well, and potentially be right about it when compared to many other companies on the market, I am not sure what the best strategy is. You need to filter out the companies that are a no-go from the beginning, and you need to do so early, because the amount of time and energy you can invest in the job search is finite. Giving a (vague, higher-than-current-salary) number that you're looking for seems to be the only way to do so. Of course, this puts you in a terrible position once you do find one of the few companies actually willing to pay comparably.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Before I spend more than half an hour with a company, I want to know that we’re in the same ballpark comp-wise. I’m not wasting my time if they’re thinking 50-60% of what I’m already making (and happy). “I’m looking for a total comp number that starts with an X or an X+1” is the way I generally approach it.

LambdaComplex 5y ago

> Forgot the first and most important commandment: always force them to open Uh...that's literally the first one though? > Do not — I repeat, do not — give them a number. > What to do instead: Ask for the range they’re budgeted for the role.

rubyist5eva 5y ago
I’m talking about the actual negotiation. Asking for a range is good when deciding if I’m even going to bother spending my time interviewing but when the the actual offer is being made - always make them go first.

spaetzleesser 5y ago

I hear that advice often but I have had more success opening with a high number so the negotiation gets anchored within a certain range. I have never had much success negotiating an offer up by a significant amount.

pineaux 5y ago
this is exactly right. negotiating up is hard.
querulous 5y ago
the never give a number advice is good if you are early career and lack a track record or you have poor information with regards to your own value but terrible advice for most mid career developers who should have the tools to estimate their own worth (peers, levels.fyi, their current comp) opening with a high but not unthinkable number is way more likely to maximize your comp than playing games and refusing to give a number. the worst case is they deem you not worth it and stop the process but if you are confident in your worth that is a good outcome for you
- wyclif 5y ago
  I think your attitude about this is too negative. Making them open is not "playing games" and serious companies don't regard it as play or jerking them around, they know it's just a part of negotiation.
wyclif 5y ago
The key is to not allow them to anchor your comp. Which leads right back to rule #1: never be opening.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

One of the problems with that is that it's like pulling teeth with every single company. If you're in a market like in Silicon Valley where companies know that good engineers can be expensive, this may be fine. However, if you're in a market where most companies will offer less than half your current compensation while still thinking they're paying well, and potentially be right about it when compared to many other companies on the market, I am not sure what the best strategy is. You need to filter out the companies that are a no-go from the beginning, and you need to do so early, because the amount of time and energy you can invest in the job search is finite. Giving a (vague, higher-than-current-salary) number that you're looking for seems to be the only way to do so. Of course, this puts you in a terrible position once you do find one of the few companies actually willing to pay comparably.

sokoloff 5y ago
Before I spend more than half an hour with a company, I want to know that we’re in the same ballpark comp-wise. I’m not wasting my time if they’re thinking 50-60% of what I’m already making (and happy). “I’m looking for a total comp number that starts with an X or an X+1” is the way I generally approach it.