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The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than A

The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.

pphysch 5y ago
> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.
- random314 5y ago
  Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide. https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Wow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI". [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...
  - WhySoGullible 5y ago
    This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database: > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible." Sounds incredibly reliable to me. [1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769 https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
    - random314 5y ago
      Here is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur
- joyeuse6701 5y ago
  Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage-daily-podcast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...
  - pphysch 5y ago
    An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
- yorwba 5y ago
  I think this Chinese government website might not have been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/content_11871628.shtml http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/co... A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling illegal religious and/or pirated publications. Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture" depends on how much emphasis you put on the "solely". If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion likely played a role.
  - fakedang 5y ago
    It's very possible though that the guy was selling "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's no chance in hell he could have legalized that business whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because they can't control it like they control the churches due to its decentralized nature).
    - yorwba 5y ago
      The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China Among other things, it has produced an official translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_1.jhtml http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be very profitable.)
  - pphysch 5y ago
    This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material. The crime of illegally distributing documents would be brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney films.
BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not? Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
- nsxwolf 5y ago
  You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"
  - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
    I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
Quinner 5y ago
Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.
- nickff 5y ago
  ... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - beckman466 5y ago
    the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.
    - beckman466 5y ago
      Sinophobia*
- whycombinater 5y ago
  93% are men, 7% women. Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men. edit: High five to sibling comment.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive. weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.

pphysch 5y ago

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.

random314 5y ago
Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide. https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
- pphysch 5y ago
  Wow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI". [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...
- WhySoGullible 5y ago
  This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database: > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible." Sounds incredibly reliable to me. [1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769 https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
  - random314 5y ago
    Here is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur
joyeuse6701 5y ago
Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage-daily-podcast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...
- pphysch 5y ago
  An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
yorwba 5y ago
I think this Chinese government website might not have been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/content_11871628.shtml http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/co... A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling illegal religious and/or pirated publications. Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture" depends on how much emphasis you put on the "solely". If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion likely played a role.
- fakedang 5y ago
  It's very possible though that the guy was selling "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's no chance in hell he could have legalized that business whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because they can't control it like they control the churches due to its decentralized nature).
  - yorwba 5y ago
    The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China Among other things, it has produced an official translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_1.jhtml http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be very profitable.)
- pphysch 5y ago
  This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material. The crime of illegally distributing documents would be brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney films.

BugsJustFindMe 5y ago

> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not? Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.

nsxwolf 5y ago
You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.

Quinner 5y ago

Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.

nickff 5y ago
... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beckman466 5y ago
  the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    Sinophobia*
whycombinater 5y ago
93% are men, 7% women. Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men. edit: High five to sibling comment.
- beckman466 5y ago
  your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive. weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.