11 ms·

So your equating prison in the US to the camps in Xinjiang?

pphysch 5y ago
No, US prison camps are definitely worse due to their scale and history. > Many of these prisons had very recently been slave plantations, Angola and Mississippi State Penitentiary (known as Parchman Farm) among them. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... Uncomfortable truth. Will probably get flagged.
- anonchan 5y ago
  The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    > But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.
    - random314 5y ago
      Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide. https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
      - pphysch 5y ago
        Wow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI". [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...
      - WhySoGullible 5y ago
        This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database: > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible." Sounds incredibly reliable to me. [1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769 https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
        random314 5y ago
        Here is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur
    - joyeuse6701 5y ago
      Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage-daily-podcast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...
      - pphysch 5y ago
        An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
    - yorwba 5y ago
      I think this Chinese government website might not have been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/content_11871628.shtml http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/co... A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling illegal religious and/or pirated publications. Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture" depends on how much emphasis you put on the "solely". If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion likely played a role.
      - fakedang 5y ago
        It's very possible though that the guy was selling "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's no chance in hell he could have legalized that business whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because they can't control it like they control the churches due to its decentralized nature).
        yorwba 5y ago
        The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China Among other things, it has produced an official translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_1.jhtml http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be very profitable.)
      - pphysch 5y ago
        This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material. The crime of illegally distributing documents would be brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney films.
  - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
    > But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not? Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
    - nsxwolf 5y ago
      You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"
      - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
        I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
  - Quinner 5y ago
    Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.
    - nickff 5y ago
      ... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - beckman466 5y ago
        the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.
        beckman466 5y ago
        Sinophobia*
    - whycombinater 5y ago
      93% are men, 7% women. Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men. edit: High five to sibling comment.
      - beckman466 5y ago
        your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive. weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pope_meat 5y ago
the 13th amendment states that the only acceptable form of slavery is prison labor. pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty dark conclusion...
pessimizer 5y ago
Or equating forced prison labor to forced prison labor.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  So you're saying that being a Uighur is an equivalent crime to committing robbery or assault?
- jorblumesea 5y ago
  Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even if the root of those crimes might be complex socio-economic factors like discrimination and income inequality. In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family members. It's really a false equivalency.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    > Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even when policing in the US is so completely racially motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while black is a reality of the US carceral system. The last year has really shown the world that US policing and incarceration is completely broken and highly resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of whom?) I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at the border detention centers.
  - pempem 5y ago
    A version of your comment from the PRC perspective would be: "These people are at the wrong mix of discrimination and are poor because they refuse to follow our laws and participate in our system. They have a right to convert, a right to appeal, and a right to negotiate by turning in family and friends who refuse to follow our laws." In fact discrimination would be the basis on which they are putting people to work, in camps. Additionally and separately: every single thing you've mentioned (right to a lawyer, right to appeal, even visits and costs of phone calls) have been shown to be stacked against low income, blue collar, or minority citizens repeatedly. A quick google search of "right to [x]" "poor defendants" or "black defendants" will clean this misapprehension right up for you. https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants

No, US prison camps are definitely worse due to their scale and history. > Many of these prisons had very recently been slave plantations, Angola and Mississippi State Penitentiary (known as Parchman Farm) among them. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... Uncomfortable truth. Will probably get flagged.

anonchan 5y ago
The forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.
- pphysch 5y ago
  > But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.
  - random314 5y ago
    Is that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide. https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
    - pphysch 5y ago
      Wow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI". [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...
    - WhySoGullible 5y ago
      This is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database: > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible." Sounds incredibly reliable to me. [1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769 https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
      - random314 5y ago
        Here is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur
  - joyeuse6701 5y ago
    Evidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage-daily-podcast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...
    - pphysch 5y ago
      An I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
  - yorwba 5y ago
    I think this Chinese government website might not have been compromised: http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/content_11871628.shtml http://www.chinapeace.gov.cn/chinapeace/c25030/2012-06/19/co... A man surnamed Ibrahim (so probably member of a Turkic Muslim minority) was sentenced to 10 years in prison and a fine of 200,000 RMB for illegally importing and selling illegal religious and/or pirated publications. Whether that's evidence of "China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture" depends on how much emphasis you put on the "solely". If he'd actually been licensed, he probably wouldn't have been arrested, but on the other hand I know a woman selling all kinds of Taoist snakeoil, and I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate her, so his religion likely played a role.
    - fakedang 5y ago
      It's very possible though that the guy was selling "illegal" Qurans, prayer mats and incantation beads, all of which are illegal material in Communist China. There's no chance in hell he could have legalized that business whatsoever, simply because the Chinese government does not take a liking to the Muslim faith (partly because they can't control it like they control the churches due to its decentralized nature).
      - yorwba 5y ago
        The centralized organisation serving as a conduit between the government and Muslims is the Islamic Association of China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Association_of_China Among other things, it has produced an official translation of the Qur'an, published by China Social Sciences Press http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_1.jhtml http://www.csspw.com.cn/booksclass_159590_1_2__0_issueddate_... If he'd been selling that one, it would've been unproblematic. (But also unlikely to be very profitable.)
    - pphysch 5y ago
      This doesn't remotely support the claim of genocide. The guy was actually accused, tried and convicted of a crime, probably involving the distribution of jihadi material. The crime of illegally distributing documents would be brutally prosecuted in the US, possibly outside the legal system. Whether it's jihadi material or pirated Disney films.
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
  > But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not? Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
  - nsxwolf 5y ago
    You're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"
    - BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
      I'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
- Quinner 5y ago
  Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.
  - nickff 5y ago
    ... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - beckman466 5y ago
      the point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.
      - beckman466 5y ago
        Sinophobia*
  - whycombinater 5y ago
    93% are men, 7% women. Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men. edit: High five to sibling comment.
    - beckman466 5y ago
      your point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive. weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pope_meat 5y ago

the 13th amendment states that the only acceptable form of slavery is prison labor. pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty dark conclusion...

pessimizer 5y ago

Or equating forced prison labor to forced prison labor.

stickfigure 5y ago
So you're saying that being a Uighur is an equivalent crime to committing robbery or assault?
jorblumesea 5y ago
Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even if the root of those crimes might be complex socio-economic factors like discrimination and income inequality. In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family members. It's really a false equivalency.
- r00fus 5y ago
  > Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even when policing in the US is so completely racially motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while black is a reality of the US carceral system. The last year has really shown the world that US policing and incarceration is completely broken and highly resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of whom?) I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at the border detention centers.
- pempem 5y ago
  A version of your comment from the PRC perspective would be: "These people are at the wrong mix of discrimination and are poor because they refuse to follow our laws and participate in our system. They have a right to convert, a right to appeal, and a right to negotiate by turning in family and friends who refuse to follow our laws." In fact discrimination would be the basis on which they are putting people to work, in camps. Additionally and separately: every single thing you've mentioned (right to a lawyer, right to appeal, even visits and costs of phone calls) have been shown to be stacked against low income, blue collar, or minority citizens repeatedly. A quick google search of "right to [x]" "poor defendants" or "black defendants" will clean this misapprehension right up for you. https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants