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> Most recently, the apparel world has been roiled by revelations that cotton from Xinjiang, in China, is being grown and processed using forced labour. The sca
by BugsJustFindMe 5y ago
> Most recently, the apparel world has been roiled by revelations that cotton from Xinjiang, in China, is being grown and processed using forced labour. The scandal...prompted sanctions and restrictions in the west on imports made of Xinjiang cotton.
This is super weird because the US _also_ still uses forced prison labor to pick cotton.
- RegnisGnaw 5y agoSo your equating prison in the US to the camps in Xinjiang?
- pphysch 5y agoNo, US prison camps are definitely worse due to their scale and history. > Many of these prisons had very recently been slave plantations, Angola and Mississippi State Penitentiary (known as Parchman Farm) among them. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-labor-in-america/406177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/prison-... Uncomfortable truth. Will probably get flagged.
- anonchan 5y agoThe forced labor described in the article is unjustifiable. But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions.
- pphysch 5y ago> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture Do you have any evidence for this claim that isn't compromised by a State Department-sized CoI? I'm genuinely curious.
- random314 5y agoIs that so hard to find? Here is a list of academics jailed for their ethnicity, as part if the genocide. https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf https://shahit.biz/supp/list_003.pdf
- pphysch 5y agoWow, you unironically just linked a Radio Free Asia[1] rag after I requested sources that don't have a "State Department sized CoI". [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Radio_Free_Asia&m...
- WhySoGullible 5y agoThis is what Gene Bunin, the author of that list, had to say about his own database: > "we have over 10000+ documented people" was the initial comment. Neither boasting nor saying 100% are credible." Sounds incredibly reliable to me. [1] https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769 https://twitter.com/shahitbiz/status/1306554296088096769
- random314 5y agoHere is the wikipedia page of the very 1st person on the list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halmurat_Upur
- joyeuse6701 5y agoEvidence is hard to come by because the CCP isn’t forthcoming in the least, but we do have the investigative journalism of the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage-daily-podcast.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/podcasts/uighurs-coverage...
- pphysch 5y agoAn I missing something or NYT is just linking to Zenz's and Allen-Ebrahimian's dubious claims?
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago> But China imprisoning populations solely for having a different religion and culture is worse than America imprisoning people for (at least mostly) real criminal convictions. My culture says that growing and smoking cannabis is good. The US disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. The Uyghur culture says that worshipping Allah is good. China disagrees and makes that nonviolent crime a felony. What's the difference, exactly? What makes one criminal conviction "real" and the other not? Our incarceration system is no less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
- nsxwolf 5y agoYou're asking "how should we decide what is moral or criminal", which is just a bit smaller a question than "what is the meaning of life?"
- BugsJustFindMe 5y agoI'm actually saying that it's derisible to say that our incarceration system is less culture-bound when we have half a million people imprisoned (1 in 5 prisoners) for nonviolent drug crimes.
- Quinner 5y agoOur criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate black people. A third of black people will be incarcerated at some point in their lives. You're six times as likely to be incarcerated if you're black than if you're white.
- nickff 5y ago... And about ten or eleven times more likely to be incarcerated if you're male than female. Does this mean that the 'justice system' was twice as well 'designed to incarcerate' men? https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- beckman466 5y agothe point is that there is too much Sinaphobia in mainstream western news outlets that means global north countries' behavior is not proportionately called out. many stories about China are unfounded and dangerous, and mostly have to do with China being technologically strong.
- beckman466 5y agoSinophobia*
- whycombinater 5y ago93% are men, 7% women. Our criminal justice system is designed to incarcerate men. edit: High five to sibling comment.
- beckman466 5y agoyour point? both statistics are valid and relevant, and aren't mutually exclusive. weird comment. statistics aren't a game you win.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- pope_meat 5y agothe 13th amendment states that the only acceptable form of slavery is prison labor. pair that with the fact that the united states is #1 in prisoners per capita, and it's not hard to come to a pretty dark conclusion...
- pessimizer 5y agoOr equating forced prison labor to forced prison labor.
- stickfigure 5y agoSo you're saying that being a Uighur is an equivalent crime to committing robbery or assault?
- jorblumesea 5y agoSomeone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even if the root of those crimes might be complex socio-economic factors like discrimination and income inequality. In addition, the level of human rights prisoners get in the US is far beyond what any Uighur experiences. Right to a lawyer, right to appeal convictions, visits from family members. It's really a false equivalency.
- r00fus 5y ago> Someone being in prison simply for being of a certain ethnicity isn't the same as someone being in prison for crimes. Even when policing in the US is so completely racially motivated? Driving (hell, biking/walking/breathing) while black is a reality of the US carceral system. The last year has really shown the world that US policing and incarceration is completely broken and highly resistant to even governance change (who's in charge of whom?) I'm not saying what China does with the Uyghur population is right. Just that the US is not far away. Hell, look at the border detention centers.
- pempem 5y agoA version of your comment from the PRC perspective would be: "These people are at the wrong mix of discrimination and are poor because they refuse to follow our laws and participate in our system. They have a right to convert, a right to appeal, and a right to negotiate by turning in family and friends who refuse to follow our laws." In fact discrimination would be the basis on which they are putting people to work, in camps. Additionally and separately: every single thing you've mentioned (right to a lawyer, right to appeal, even visits and costs of phone calls) have been shown to be stacked against low income, blue collar, or minority citizens repeatedly. A quick google search of "right to [x]" "poor defendants" or "black defendants" will clean this misapprehension right up for you. https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants https://lmgtfy.app/?q=right+to+a+lawyer+%2B+poor+defendants
- pphysch 5y agoIs there a single large economy that doesn't prohibit forced prison labor? I can't find one.
- sofixa 5y agoCare to name which ones do? China, US, probably Russia? Who else?
- pphysch 5y agoUS, Germany, Russia, Brazil, China, India, etc. The truth is that giving convicted prisoners opportunities to work is probably a big net positive. I'm sure plenty of them would work for pennies rather than rot in a cell. The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself. But that requires far more investigation to establish than pearl-clutching about the universal practice of "forced labor". But if there is a legit criminal behind bars, I would like to hear reasons why they shouldn't be able to work in a highly controlled, safe workplace.
- maxmamis 5y ago> The root of the problem is if there is injustice in sentencing or coercive work conditions. Not the work itself. lol what? they're in a cage guarded by men with guns. what about that could possibly be anything other than "coercive?"
- ilamont 5y agoNot just cotton. Fighting fires. Making License plates. Doing laundry. The difference is U.S. prisoners are convicted felons. Many volunteer for these jobs, such as the firefighters in California. Others are paid a small wage for their work or get reduced sentences. In China, it's members of specific minority groups such as Uyghurs who are singled out and put into concentration camps ... not because of what they have done, but because of who they are and what they believe. Uyghurs and other non-Han minority people in China are subjected to forced labor, forced abortions and idealogical re-education. Via the AP: An estimated 1 million people or more — most of them Uyghurs — have been confined in re-education camps in Xinjiang in recent years, according to researchers. Chinese authorities have been accused of imposing forced labor, systematic forced birth control and torture, and separating children from incarcerated parents. https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-middle-east-europe-government-and-politics-76acafd6547fb7cc9ef03c0dd0156eab https://apnews.com/article/only-on-ap-middle-east-europe-gov... The Guardian: It estimated 570,000 people came through three minority-heavy prefectures alone – Aksu, Hotan, and Kashgar – and that labor programs in other ethnic minority regions as well as prison labor would probably add hundreds of thousands to the figure. The labour programs are not secret; they are frequently written about in state media as glowing examples of the government assisting millions of poor people into work, but those articles also contain clues to their coercive nature. Transferred workers are often sent far from their home, made to live on site in factories and subjected to ideological training. Publications on the labour schemes frequently include references to policies discouraging “illegal religious activities” and changing thoughts and behaviour. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/xinjiang-china-more-than-half-a-million-forced-to-pick-cotton-report-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/15/xinjiang-china...
- pphysch 5y agoBoth media sources rely on speculation from one individual, so why not just link that shared source?
- ilamont 5y agoOne source? There are multiple sources, including eyewitness accounts, reports from Chinese and Uyghur exiles, western experts, and even satellite imagery: "The findings of this research contradict Chinese officials' claims that all 'trainees' from so-called vocational training [centers] had 'graduated' by late 2019," report author Nathan Ruser wrote. "Instead, available evidence suggests that many extrajudicial detainees in Xinjiang's vast 're-education' network are now being formally charged and locked up in higher security facilities, including newly built or expanded prisons, or sent to walled factory compounds for coerced [labor] assignments." https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916665128/report-satellite-images-reveal-suspected-detention-sites-in-chinas-xinjiang-regi https://www.npr.org/2020/09/24/916665128/report-satellite-im...
- random314 5y agoThat's unfortunate. However, folks in the US prison system have been convicted of crimes.
- d4mi3n 5y agoPresumably China has also convicted it's forced labor of some crimes as well. Regardless of what the laws are, I believe that prison labor is a bad practice with big ethical issues—it incentives incarceration as a means to procure cheap/free labor that can be used to turn a profit for those in power. EDIT: To clarify: I don't think giving prisoners an option to work is a bad thing, but nobody should be allowed to profit off of such labor other than the prisoner themselves. Anything else tends to lead towards undesirable incentives and outcomes.
- rytor718 5y agoSo slavery is legal as long as the slave is a criminal? I'm not following what's being implied.
- BugsJustFindMe 5y agoIgnoring the fact that we've had prisoners, in places like e.g. Guantanamo, on and off who were/are held for decades without ever even being charged with anything, China has also charged its prisoners with crimes. You don't agree with China's decision to make practicing religion a crime, I don't agree with the US's decision to make possessing drugs a crime. Both are "crimes" punishable by incarceration according to the two governments.
- vkou 5y agoThe Gulags were also full of people who have committed crimes. Some of those crimes were even non-political! I can't say that's the argument that I'd use to defend slavery, though...
- 0x000000001 5y agoCriminals are still humans and we should be using every effort to rehabilitate them and make them valuable members of society and contributors to the economy in a far more significant way
- dang 5y agoYou started a hellish flamewar with this comment. Obviously the topics are serious but internet flamewars about these things are profoundly unserious and not what this site is for. Please take more care in the future, and please use HN in the intended spirit of thoughtful, curious conversation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We've detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28644625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28644625.
- BugsJustFindMe 5y ago> You started a hellish flamewar with this comment. Well, it's clear after the fact, but that was not intentional. You have way more experience monitoring and tracking these threads and therefore predicting what will probably happen than any of the rest of us. I do think it's hypocritical for a government to impose sanctions for doing something (forced prisoner labor) that that government also does with its own prisoners. It would be nice if we could have an honest discussion about our carceral state without people repeatedly leaning into the idea that "convicted of crime"="deserves what they get, but only here and not there". But I understand that there are clearly now many greyed comments under here, so I don't fault you for separating the thread. And I can't predict that it won't happen again, but I'm sorry about bringing what this thread became to your doorstep.