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> What are the tradeoffs comapred to JS, OCaml and Rust? JS: Static types OCaml: Readable, familiar syntax, presumably none of the "many standard libraries" p

> What are the tradeoffs comapred to JS, OCaml and Rust? JS: Static types OCaml: Readable, familiar syntax, presumably none of the "many standard libraries" problems. Hopefully the community is significantly less toxic. Rust: Garbage collected. Yeah, I know that the borrow checker gives you more than just memory management, but having to deal with the borrow checker really slows most people down a lot (even if they're experienced) and most applications can't trade that much developer velocity for an extra bit of safety and performance. > What's your pitch for developers that see new languages every 6 months, with usually more features Presumably "fewer features"?

Zababa 5y ago
That's a great overview, and I think Grain would benefit from a page like this. "X for Y programmers" is a useful pattern. > OCaml: [...] Hopefully the community is significantly less toxic. What do you mean by this?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  OCaml's community has always struck me as really toxic and hostile to newbies. If a newbie asks a question however politely, they're frequently berated as though asking for help is cheating and everyone should learn things the hard way as they did. Alternatively, if the community doesn't have a good answer (e.g., "How do I do X in OCaml?"), they often respond with some variation of "You're stupid for trying to do X" or "If Jane Street can make millions without X, then your company doesn't need it either!". Of course, every community has some toxic members, but in my experience they are so pervasive in the OCaml community that it virtually characterizes the entire community. And I've heard every justification including "Everyone is mean to the OCaml community, so the OCaml community is mean to everyone else". Anyway, I don't care to get into an argument about whether or not OCaml's community is toxic, I'm happy to agree to disagree.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    And Americans often expect a ton of hand-holding. OCaml is a mature language with lots of relatively mature projects, tends to have a ton of documentation, etc... Here's one of my favourite blog posts ever concerning open source and some expectations: https://www.catuhe.com/le-syndrome-du-puppy/ https://www.catuhe.com/le-syndrome-du-puppy/
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Hah, weird to make this nationalist. I studied at a top-tier French university without much hand-holding (and indeed tutored my French and English counterparts with their computer science lessons), but I guess I'm still not qualified to inquire of the OCaml community. Thank you, however, for illustrating my point. :)
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        I've just heard every community described as 'toxic' and honestly 9/10 times I disagree.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        > I've just heard every community described as 'toxic' and honestly 9/10 times I disagree. That's pretty consistent with the "toxic community" hypothesis. I.e., people who are attracted to toxic communities think that others are too soft/welcoming, tolerate too much "hand holding", etc.
        kafkatrapsahoy 5y ago
        This is a disgusting kafka trap you just tried to stuff another person in by implying the only reason anyone could disagree with you is if they're an abuser. You can take this slimy behavior elsewhere and it only shows that your remarks about the OCaml community are suspect.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > Anyway, I don't care to get into an argument about whether or not OCaml's community is toxic, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I'm not interested in arguing either, I was asking because I've been interested by OCaml for a long time and it's always nice to know in advance about broken stairs. Thanks for sharing.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      That makes sense. My "I'm not interested in arguing" wasn't directed to you per se, but to any who might be interested in responding argumentatively.

Zababa 5y ago

That's a great overview, and I think Grain would benefit from a page like this. "X for Y programmers" is a useful pattern. > OCaml: [...] Hopefully the community is significantly less toxic. What do you mean by this?

throwaway894345 5y ago
OCaml's community has always struck me as really toxic and hostile to newbies. If a newbie asks a question however politely, they're frequently berated as though asking for help is cheating and everyone should learn things the hard way as they did. Alternatively, if the community doesn't have a good answer (e.g., "How do I do X in OCaml?"), they often respond with some variation of "You're stupid for trying to do X" or "If Jane Street can make millions without X, then your company doesn't need it either!". Of course, every community has some toxic members, but in my experience they are so pervasive in the OCaml community that it virtually characterizes the entire community. And I've heard every justification including "Everyone is mean to the OCaml community, so the OCaml community is mean to everyone else". Anyway, I don't care to get into an argument about whether or not OCaml's community is toxic, I'm happy to agree to disagree.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  And Americans often expect a ton of hand-holding. OCaml is a mature language with lots of relatively mature projects, tends to have a ton of documentation, etc... Here's one of my favourite blog posts ever concerning open source and some expectations: https://www.catuhe.com/le-syndrome-du-puppy/ https://www.catuhe.com/le-syndrome-du-puppy/
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Hah, weird to make this nationalist. I studied at a top-tier French university without much hand-holding (and indeed tutored my French and English counterparts with their computer science lessons), but I guess I'm still not qualified to inquire of the OCaml community. Thank you, however, for illustrating my point. :)
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      I've just heard every community described as 'toxic' and honestly 9/10 times I disagree.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > I've just heard every community described as 'toxic' and honestly 9/10 times I disagree. That's pretty consistent with the "toxic community" hypothesis. I.e., people who are attracted to toxic communities think that others are too soft/welcoming, tolerate too much "hand holding", etc.
        kafkatrapsahoy 5y ago
        This is a disgusting kafka trap you just tried to stuff another person in by implying the only reason anyone could disagree with you is if they're an abuser. You can take this slimy behavior elsewhere and it only shows that your remarks about the OCaml community are suspect.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Anyway, I don't care to get into an argument about whether or not OCaml's community is toxic, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I'm not interested in arguing either, I was asking because I've been interested by OCaml for a long time and it's always nice to know in advance about broken stairs. Thanks for sharing.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    That makes sense. My "I'm not interested in arguing" wasn't directed to you per se, but to any who might be interested in responding argumentatively.