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Contra: > This is a profoundly stupid way to approach product design and standardisation. What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector?

Contra: > This is a profoundly stupid way to approach product design and standardisation. What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector? What if they’d picked USB 3 five years ago? * https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1441009296540676096 https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1441009296540676096 > But Apple has also argued that if the European Union had imposed a common charger in 2009, it would have restricted innovation that led to USB-C and Lightning connectors. In a statement, Apple said that although it welcomed the European Commission’s commitment to protecting the environment, it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation. * https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/business/european-union-apple-charging-port.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/23/business/european-union-a... In 2009 we would have been stuck with micro-USB: > These E.U. meddlers have indeed been clamoring for this legislation since 2009 — Apple didn’t pick that date out of the air. At the time, iPhones used 30-pin iPod USB 1 adapters and most other phones used adapters like Micro-USB and (gag) Mini-USB. You don’t have to be a computer engineer to look back at your lifetime and realize that computer plugs and adapters keep getting smaller and better. Do they really think no one is going to come up with an adapter better than USB-C? Ever? * https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/09/23/eu-usbc-mandate https://daringfireball.net/linked/2021/09/23/eu-usbc-mandate

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I was under the impression that the EU did force a change in 2009, and that is part of the reason micro-usb -> usb-A became the defacto standard for Android, and that Apple was forced to ship it's phone chargers with detachable leads for this reason. That's something that Apple users would have benefitted from, when apple changed to their newer proprietary cable, since they'd only need to swap the cable. Plus the general benefit of the market interoperability that provides lots of cheap 3rd party USB chargers for cars and such like. edit: looks like they got a voluntary agreement, not an actual law, and Apple was one of the signatories, and it was in place up until in 2014 in various guises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
kalleboo 5y ago
EU legislators are well-aware that legislating a technical solution is a bad idea, this whole time they tried to get this done through a simple memorandum of understanding where the manufacturers would do it voluntarily and that would let the industry evolve naturally as they pleased, as long as they moved somewhat in lock-step. But Apple refused to adopt what the rest of the industry did and now they're moving to legislate it. Apple brought this upon themselves by being arrogant and selfish.
Tomis02 5y ago
> What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector? Laws change to adapt to the industry's demands. Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones? > it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation Apple is lying, of course, so it's good to verify their claims. The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the use of Lightning ports or whatever Apple wants to use. They just need to allow USB-C charging as well. So the field is still open for innovation. > These E.U. meddlers Sorry, but if you want to sell your phones in the EU, then you'll have to learn to play by the rules set by the EU citizens. Nobody's forcing you to sell here, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones? USB-C is at least the fifth (might be sixth or more) iteration of device-side USB connector. The concern is this legislation will significantly slow the pace of improvement. If the EU passed this in 1997, would we have a DC barrel jack or a USB-B connector on our phones? Is that an improvement for consumers?
  - Jensson 5y ago
    At some point there is more value in standardization than innovation though. EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable. "What if they did it with cable X" isn't a good argument against it.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable. And if they're wrong? How do we get a better option if no one is incentivized to experiment because of legal mandates? How can someone even add a new, perhaps better, option if it's illegal to do so?
cblconfederate 5y ago
BS it would hinder innovation. how hard is it to adapt any innovative connector to work with the usb-c format? Maybe they should apply a little more innovation and make lighnting work with the usb-c format
- yakkers 5y ago
  What exactly do you mean by “work with the USB-C format?”. USB-C defines the physical connector. Would a C-to-Lightning cable count? Because those do exist, and are now what you get in the box with newer iPhones.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    now, integrate that cable into the phone. even make it part of a SoC. that's innovation
knorker 5y ago
The argument that the device-side should be left alone doesn't hold much water. All my laptops and phones use USB-C. All of them. Even the Apple laptops in the house. The only thing that requires a whole second set of chargers and cables is the iPhone. Laptop chargers tend to not have the other end of the cable datachable. And let's be real, here. This is Apple's fault. Apple alone has been creating this problem, and has been VERY aware than the EU has been pissed, for like a decade. Apple, what did you think was going to happen? If Apple hadn't been an asshole here, and tossed out the lightning port 5 years ago, then none of this would have happened. The EU is forced to legislate because Apple refused to cooperate. And the EU for YEARS told Apple "if you don't cooperate you're forcing us to legislate". You're also not wrong. This is a big shit sandwidch, and we're all gonna have to take a big bite. But this is VERY much Apple's fault that we're in this mess, and will switch to a different mess due to this legislation. It's an improvement by miles. Fuck you Apple for holding this back for so long. Literally everyone else did the right thing before the force of law.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I was under the impression that the EU did force a change in 2009, and that is part of the reason micro-usb -> usb-A became the defacto standard for Android, and that Apple was forced to ship it's phone chargers with detachable leads for this reason. That's something that Apple users would have benefitted from, when apple changed to their newer proprietary cable, since they'd only need to swap the cable. Plus the general benefit of the market interoperability that provides lots of cheap 3rd party USB chargers for cars and such like. edit: looks like they got a voluntary agreement, not an actual law, and Apple was one of the signatories, and it was in place up until in 2014 in various guises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

kalleboo 5y ago

EU legislators are well-aware that legislating a technical solution is a bad idea, this whole time they tried to get this done through a simple memorandum of understanding where the manufacturers would do it voluntarily and that would let the industry evolve naturally as they pleased, as long as they moved somewhat in lock-step. But Apple refused to adopt what the rest of the industry did and now they're moving to legislate it. Apple brought this upon themselves by being arrogant and selfish.

Tomis02 5y ago

> What happens in 5 years when someone wants to use a better connector? Laws change to adapt to the industry's demands. Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones? > it favored a solution that left the device side of the charging interface open for innovation Apple is lying, of course, so it's good to verify their claims. The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the use of Lightning ports or whatever Apple wants to use. They just need to allow USB-C charging as well. So the field is still open for innovation. > These E.U. meddlers Sorry, but if you want to sell your phones in the EU, then you'll have to learn to play by the rules set by the EU citizens. Nobody's forcing you to sell here, and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

sokoloff 5y ago
> Although, I wonder what this person means by "better connected". USB-C is good enough for computers; is it not good enough for phones? USB-C is at least the fifth (might be sixth or more) iteration of device-side USB connector. The concern is this legislation will significantly slow the pace of improvement. If the EU passed this in 1997, would we have a DC barrel jack or a USB-B connector on our phones? Is that an improvement for consumers?
- Jensson 5y ago
  At some point there is more value in standardization than innovation though. EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable. "What if they did it with cable X" isn't a good argument against it.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > EU decided that the point is now for this kind of cable. And if they're wrong? How do we get a better option if no one is incentivized to experiment because of legal mandates? How can someone even add a new, perhaps better, option if it's illegal to do so?

cblconfederate 5y ago

BS it would hinder innovation. how hard is it to adapt any innovative connector to work with the usb-c format? Maybe they should apply a little more innovation and make lighnting work with the usb-c format

yakkers 5y ago
What exactly do you mean by “work with the USB-C format?”. USB-C defines the physical connector. Would a C-to-Lightning cable count? Because those do exist, and are now what you get in the box with newer iPhones.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  now, integrate that cable into the phone. even make it part of a SoC. that's innovation

knorker 5y ago

The argument that the device-side should be left alone doesn't hold much water. All my laptops and phones use USB-C. All of them. Even the Apple laptops in the house. The only thing that requires a whole second set of chargers and cables is the iPhone. Laptop chargers tend to not have the other end of the cable datachable. And let's be real, here. This is Apple's fault. Apple alone has been creating this problem, and has been VERY aware than the EU has been pissed, for like a decade. Apple, what did you think was going to happen? If Apple hadn't been an asshole here, and tossed out the lightning port 5 years ago, then none of this would have happened. The EU is forced to legislate because Apple refused to cooperate. And the EU for YEARS told Apple "if you don't cooperate you're forcing us to legislate". You're also not wrong. This is a big shit sandwidch, and we're all gonna have to take a big bite. But this is VERY much Apple's fault that we're in this mess, and will switch to a different mess due to this legislation. It's an improvement by miles. Fuck you Apple for holding this back for so long. Literally everyone else did the right thing before the force of law.