12 ms·

Every time I read about what the EFF is doing I get the sense that their priorities are clear, they’re fighting a good fight and in my case they’re generally ac

by tailspin2019 5y ago

Every time I read about what the EFF is doing I get the sense that their priorities are clear, they’re fighting a good fight and in my case they’re generally acting in line with the values/beliefs I hold around the areas they get involved with. It’s cool when you find an organisation whose actions line up with your view of the world like that, and appears to be pretty effective too. Someone else commented about the cost of this “stunt”, but I can’t see it costing a huge amount to pull off in the big scheme of things, and it does make for some excellent visuals which as someone else pointed out, may give some journalists a “hook” into the story. I don’t donate much (monthly recurring) but I’m pretty happy with what I see coming out of the EFF and am happy to support them. By the way, if anyone is on the fence about donating, check out their site as you can get some “cool”[1] EFF swag in return for your donation too: https://supporters.eff.org/donate/ https://supporters.eff.org/donate/ [1] No guarantees implied or given about how “cool” others will think your swag actually is.

politelemon 5y ago
I've taken the opposite view ever since EFF has started wasting time on protests, appeals and letters on this specific issue. Instead of treating this company with the same scrutiny it treats other companies with (point out what's wrong, offer alternatives, chase legislation) it's instead spending time on these stunts as someone called it. At this point, the cat is out of the bag, and has been out of the bag for several years, it's just hitting 'close to home' now. Withdrawals and delays that are effected as a result of these will not make any difference. This isn't a good fight but a form of denial and while I've been a regular supporter of theirs for several years, I now question where their priorities lie.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  I’ve seen the word “stunts” (plural) used a few times in the comments but what other things has the EFF done recently that would qualify as a stunt? This particular thing was very clearly and deliberately a “stunt” but to me it feels more like the exception than the norm for the sort of thing EFF typically does? Admittedly I’m fairly new to EFF so have only really been paying attention to them for a year or two.
  - politelemon 5y ago
    I would assume the other one is the protests outside their HQs? https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/09/dont-stop-now-join-eff-fight-future-apple-protests-nationwide https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/09/dont-stop-now-join-eff... If not stunt, perhaps some other word may be suited for it. My comments on it would still be the same.
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      EFF is an non-profit activism organisation that stands up for freedom and civil liberties (amongst other things). So organising a peaceful protest seems to me to be fully within their remit and entirely appropriate? It’s about as fundamental as you can get when it comes to exercising people’s rights to stand up for what they believe in, peacefully but firmly. Despite the fact that their areas of focus are in the digital realm, sometimes you can’t beat the power of in-person organising IRL. Edit: I’d be interested to hear what you think they should be doing that they’re not. (Genuinely, not trying to bait you!) I don’t see anything wrong with these awareness raising events but what else could they be doing from your perspective?
- atatatat 5y ago
  > I now question where their priorities lie. Informing and legally fighting for the user — seemingly the "informing the user" will be more cost effective in the Apple case. They have billions of dollars for legal costs...
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  They're doing the best thing they can do right now. They've already pointed out what's wrong numerous times, and there's not a good privacy-first alternative. They can not beat a $2tn company by chasing legislation without a wide swath of public awareness and support.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- someguydave 5y ago
  some political groups value activism and appearance over substantial gains
mhb 5y ago
The Institute for Justice has a similar/related set of objectives: https://ij.org/ https://ij.org/
tzs 5y ago
Are they pretty effective? Most proposals they object to are trying to solve real problems. I almost never see the EFF propose better ways to solve those problems. They just raise objections to everyone else's proposed solutions. And those objections are often just low effort implausible slippery slope arguments. It is pretty easy to make a slippery slope argument for pretty much anything that has it leading to a dystopian nightmare. Legislators and policy makers tend to pay more attention to people with solutions, even bad solutions, than to people who just object to everything, especially when those objections are low quality.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > I almost never see the EFF propose better ways to solve those problems. They just raise objections to everyone else's proposed solutions. That's not their job though, providing solutions and listening to citizen and NGO feedback is the job of the politicians.
  - mkr-hn 5y ago
    If the EFF doesn't suggest something the people who propose the ideas the EFF objects to will continue to have all the influence over politicians.
  - HelixEndeavor 5y ago
    If you don't propose an alternative then people will see you as just an irritating contrarian.
- elif 5y ago
  1) free software is viable. The alternatives to practically everything exist technologically. 2) can you provide an example of a 'slippery slope' that did not come to fruition? Rhetorical devices and hyperbole are exactly how you make abstract technical concerns feel real to an average 65 year old congressperson
  - blitzar 5y ago
    > can you provide an example of a 'slippery slope' that did not come to fruition Letting a muslim, specifically Barack Obama, become president was the first stop on the slippery slope to Sharia Law in the USA. Many of the congress people you mention were in agreement. Last I checked, some part of the above did not happen.
gambler 5y ago
>Every time I read about what the EFF is doing I get the sense that their priorities are clear, they’re fighting a good fight and in my case they’re generally acting in line with the values/beliefs I hold around the areas they get involved with. I no longer feel this way. They got heavily partisan in the last few years and their statements on online censorship are weak and incoherent. Why is their website on censorship (https://onlinecensorship.org/ https://onlinecensorship.org/) abandoned and only contains examples from one side of the political spectrum? Why are their lawyers participating in pro-censorship industry panels? Where was EFF when New York Post's reporting on Hunter Biden laptop was censored by Twitter and Facebook? That was completely unprecedented, probably the biggest case of big tech censorship ever. (And yes, that reporting was accurate, contrary to what many here probably have heard: https://rumble.com/vmteq5-new-proof-emerges-about-the-hunter-biden-laptop-a-definitive-account-of-the.html https://rumble.com/vmteq5-new-proof-emerges-about-the-hunter... .) Where is EFF when YouTube relentlessly deletes educational videos, congressional testimonies and interviews with doctors when they say something "prohibited" about Covid-related topics?
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  Sucks that people here are downvoting you for speaking the truth. Seems the HN userbase has its own ingrained biases.
bananamerica 5y ago
You seem to have written an internet top comment that is not only positive and hopeful, but also devoid of cynicism. Please remove yourself from the building and leave your badge at the reception. As a security measure, you will be followed to your car. Don't come back ever again. Thanks!
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  Sorry about that. Won’t do it again. EDIT: Ah the sad irony of you being downvoted for this comment... I guess the balance has been restored! Sigh...
  - bananamerica 5y ago
    Don't bother. Feeling helpless all the time is a good way to avoid frustration, joy, or anything worth feeling, really. It is also incredibly easy. If you look for reasons to feel bad you're surely going to find them. Hope is reserved for the courageous. Have a wonderful weekend. Cheers!
    - tailspin2019 5y ago
      > Have a wonderful weekend. You too :)

politelemon 5y ago

I've taken the opposite view ever since EFF has started wasting time on protests, appeals and letters on this specific issue. Instead of treating this company with the same scrutiny it treats other companies with (point out what's wrong, offer alternatives, chase legislation) it's instead spending time on these stunts as someone called it. At this point, the cat is out of the bag, and has been out of the bag for several years, it's just hitting 'close to home' now. Withdrawals and delays that are effected as a result of these will not make any difference. This isn't a good fight but a form of denial and while I've been a regular supporter of theirs for several years, I now question where their priorities lie.

tailspin2019 5y ago
I’ve seen the word “stunts” (plural) used a few times in the comments but what other things has the EFF done recently that would qualify as a stunt? This particular thing was very clearly and deliberately a “stunt” but to me it feels more like the exception than the norm for the sort of thing EFF typically does? Admittedly I’m fairly new to EFF so have only really been paying attention to them for a year or two.
- politelemon 5y ago
  I would assume the other one is the protests outside their HQs? https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/09/dont-stop-now-join-eff-fight-future-apple-protests-nationwide https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/09/dont-stop-now-join-eff... If not stunt, perhaps some other word may be suited for it. My comments on it would still be the same.
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    EFF is an non-profit activism organisation that stands up for freedom and civil liberties (amongst other things). So organising a peaceful protest seems to me to be fully within their remit and entirely appropriate? It’s about as fundamental as you can get when it comes to exercising people’s rights to stand up for what they believe in, peacefully but firmly. Despite the fact that their areas of focus are in the digital realm, sometimes you can’t beat the power of in-person organising IRL. Edit: I’d be interested to hear what you think they should be doing that they’re not. (Genuinely, not trying to bait you!) I don’t see anything wrong with these awareness raising events but what else could they be doing from your perspective?
atatatat 5y ago
> I now question where their priorities lie. Informing and legally fighting for the user — seemingly the "informing the user" will be more cost effective in the Apple case. They have billions of dollars for legal costs...
micromacrofoot 5y ago
They're doing the best thing they can do right now. They've already pointed out what's wrong numerous times, and there's not a good privacy-first alternative. They can not beat a $2tn company by chasing legislation without a wide swath of public awareness and support.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
someguydave 5y ago
some political groups value activism and appearance over substantial gains

mhb 5y ago

The Institute for Justice has a similar/related set of objectives: https://ij.org/ https://ij.org/

tzs 5y ago

Are they pretty effective? Most proposals they object to are trying to solve real problems. I almost never see the EFF propose better ways to solve those problems. They just raise objections to everyone else's proposed solutions. And those objections are often just low effort implausible slippery slope arguments. It is pretty easy to make a slippery slope argument for pretty much anything that has it leading to a dystopian nightmare. Legislators and policy makers tend to pay more attention to people with solutions, even bad solutions, than to people who just object to everything, especially when those objections are low quality.

mschuster91 5y ago
> I almost never see the EFF propose better ways to solve those problems. They just raise objections to everyone else's proposed solutions. That's not their job though, providing solutions and listening to citizen and NGO feedback is the job of the politicians.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  If the EFF doesn't suggest something the people who propose the ideas the EFF objects to will continue to have all the influence over politicians.
- HelixEndeavor 5y ago
  If you don't propose an alternative then people will see you as just an irritating contrarian.
elif 5y ago
1) free software is viable. The alternatives to practically everything exist technologically. 2) can you provide an example of a 'slippery slope' that did not come to fruition? Rhetorical devices and hyperbole are exactly how you make abstract technical concerns feel real to an average 65 year old congressperson
- blitzar 5y ago
  > can you provide an example of a 'slippery slope' that did not come to fruition Letting a muslim, specifically Barack Obama, become president was the first stop on the slippery slope to Sharia Law in the USA. Many of the congress people you mention were in agreement. Last I checked, some part of the above did not happen.

gambler 5y ago

>Every time I read about what the EFF is doing I get the sense that their priorities are clear, they’re fighting a good fight and in my case they’re generally acting in line with the values/beliefs I hold around the areas they get involved with. I no longer feel this way. They got heavily partisan in the last few years and their statements on online censorship are weak and incoherent. Why is their website on censorship (https://onlinecensorship.org/ https://onlinecensorship.org/) abandoned and only contains examples from one side of the political spectrum? Why are their lawyers participating in pro-censorship industry panels? Where was EFF when New York Post's reporting on Hunter Biden laptop was censored by Twitter and Facebook? That was completely unprecedented, probably the biggest case of big tech censorship ever. (And yes, that reporting was accurate, contrary to what many here probably have heard: https://rumble.com/vmteq5-new-proof-emerges-about-the-hunter-biden-laptop-a-definitive-account-of-the.html https://rumble.com/vmteq5-new-proof-emerges-about-the-hunter... .) Where is EFF when YouTube relentlessly deletes educational videos, congressional testimonies and interviews with doctors when they say something "prohibited" about Covid-related topics?

HelixEndeavor 5y ago
Sucks that people here are downvoting you for speaking the truth. Seems the HN userbase has its own ingrained biases.

bananamerica 5y ago

You seem to have written an internet top comment that is not only positive and hopeful, but also devoid of cynicism. Please remove yourself from the building and leave your badge at the reception. As a security measure, you will be followed to your car. Don't come back ever again. Thanks!

tailspin2019 5y ago
Sorry about that. Won’t do it again. EDIT: Ah the sad irony of you being downvoted for this comment... I guess the balance has been restored! Sigh...
- bananamerica 5y ago
  Don't bother. Feeling helpless all the time is a good way to avoid frustration, joy, or anything worth feeling, really. It is also incredibly easy. If you look for reasons to feel bad you're surely going to find them. Hope is reserved for the courageous. Have a wonderful weekend. Cheers!
  - tailspin2019 5y ago
    > Have a wonderful weekend. You too :)