4 ms·

Wow, it's quite fascinating what you non-Mac people are willing to put up with. Or maybe it's fascinating how Mac JustWorks(TM).

by tomp 5y ago

jraph 5y ago
Read the thread just next to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640283 It's also Macs. Computers are complicated, some things are probably released with a tight schedule, things are not formally verified, and therefore have bugs. Hardware or software. It's sad but we have to deal with it. Sleep has been working well on Linux on the machines I've been using for the past years (especially after removing a defective RAM stick from one of them - and the computer is built in such a way I could do it myself easily!). But yes, once or twice, the computer won't go to sleep because I'm running updates (that I launched manually, mind you), or some other shit. I've taken the habit of checking that the computer actually went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you should, too, for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep because who knows why.
- hvidgaard 5y ago
  > It's sad but we have to deal with it. We can absolutely both meet reasonable innovation and deadlines with formal verification. It's just that no one wants to pay for it.
  - jraph 5y ago
    I'm interested in examples you may have, as someone who once flirted with formal methods. The most practical use of formal method I witnessed is model checking (with TLA+), but that does not check the actual implementation. There's also CompCert, a formally verified C compiler written in Coq, but even then, some parts are not verified so the final product may still have bugs.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Tomp was likely talking about the Mac “reopen running apps after reboot” which works very well in terms of putting your state back the way it was. Terminals aren’t fully restored (what would it mean to/how could you restore an ssh connection anyway?), but most apps for most people are.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    >Terminals aren’t fully restored (what would it mean to/how could you restore an ssh connection anyway?), but most apps for most people are. See my post about NeWS ~/.startup.ps event recording and playback above. You could record keyboard events to set up your terminal windows and emacs buffers and shells, and mouse events to open and position windows, pop up and select from menus, press buttons and drag sliders, etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640529 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640529 Back in the 80's we used unencrypted rlogin with .rhosts files to avoid typing passwords, but now you can restore encrypted shell connections using ssh keys. The nice thing is that it was WYDIWYG (What You Did Is What You Get), no writing scripts in various shell and emacs scripting languages, just record and playback, like keyboard macros for the window system.
  - tomp 5y ago
    No, I never reboot my Mac. (For reasonable values of "never", e.g. "once every 3 months".) ssh connections fail even with just sleep though, obviously.
    - jraph 5y ago
      I don't rely on it, but I often notice a ssh connection still working after a night with the computer being suspended. It requires two things: - the network does not have a short timeout after which it closes the connection - no side of the connection is trying to do I/O on this connection while one of the computers is sleeping.
- tomp 5y ago
  I've been using macs for the past 10 years, and I've never had this problem. I've never even thought about it! I close the lid, I open it, it just works. Maybe it's just my (2013 Pro and M1 Air), or maybe in the meantime the quality dipped... All in all, as I often say, the best advertisement for Apple is all the other computers. > I've taken the habit of checking that the computer actually went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you should, too, for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep because who knows why. How would you even do that? If I open the lid (even just a bit), it turns back on immediately. Also, why do you think it would overheat if it accidentally didn't go to sleep? It's not like it's using fans while being turned on.
  - jraph 5y ago
    Good for you. You probably happen to use your Macs in a way you don't hit those bugs, and didn't have to deal with faulty hardware. I'm sure things are flawless most of the time too. My computers also go to sleep reliably. They are professional hardware, of good quality, and from different brands. I'm sure other models of other brands or of the same brands have quirks, or that there are people who have problems with the same hardware/software as mine because they use it differently. Maybe it's not that much a Mac vs the rest of the world thing. Evidence is that people have problems with any kind of hardware and brands, this is indisputable. > How would you even do that? There is usually some led visible somewhere, or a small noise, when the thing failed to fall asleep. You know your computer.
    - tomp 5y ago
      Sure, but for a Mac, it's a "bug" or "faulty hardware". For XPS (and presumably many other Windows laptops), it's policy.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Closing the lid has never worked for me on a Windows laptop, even the most expensiveness HP Elitebooks or Dell’a Latitude Pro or whatever. On my MacBook Air, it has never been a problem for 7 years. It is one of the main reasons I moved to Apple, it is just so much more convenient not having to worry about it.

Wow, it's quite fascinating what you non-Mac people are willing to put up with. Or maybe it's fascinating how Mac JustWorks(TM).

by tomp 5y ago

Wow, it's quite fascinating what you non-Mac people are willing to put up with. Or maybe it's fascinating how Mac JustWorks(TM).

jraph 5y ago

Read the thread just next to your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640283 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640283 It's also Macs. Computers are complicated, some things are probably released with a tight schedule, things are not formally verified, and therefore have bugs. Hardware or software. It's sad but we have to deal with it. Sleep has been working well on Linux on the machines I've been using for the past years (especially after removing a defective RAM stick from one of them - and the computer is built in such a way I could do it myself easily!). But yes, once or twice, the computer won't go to sleep because I'm running updates (that I launched manually, mind you), or some other shit. I've taken the habit of checking that the computer actually went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you should, too, for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep because who knows why.

hvidgaard 5y ago
> It's sad but we have to deal with it. We can absolutely both meet reasonable innovation and deadlines with formal verification. It's just that no one wants to pay for it.
- jraph 5y ago
  I'm interested in examples you may have, as someone who once flirted with formal methods. The most practical use of formal method I witnessed is model checking (with TLA+), but that does not check the actual implementation. There's also CompCert, a formally verified C compiler written in Coq, but even then, some parts are not verified so the final product may still have bugs.
sokoloff 5y ago
Tomp was likely talking about the Mac “reopen running apps after reboot” which works very well in terms of putting your state back the way it was. Terminals aren’t fully restored (what would it mean to/how could you restore an ssh connection anyway?), but most apps for most people are.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  >Terminals aren’t fully restored (what would it mean to/how could you restore an ssh connection anyway?), but most apps for most people are. See my post about NeWS ~/.startup.ps event recording and playback above. You could record keyboard events to set up your terminal windows and emacs buffers and shells, and mouse events to open and position windows, pop up and select from menus, press buttons and drag sliders, etc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640529 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28640529 Back in the 80's we used unencrypted rlogin with .rhosts files to avoid typing passwords, but now you can restore encrypted shell connections using ssh keys. The nice thing is that it was WYDIWYG (What You Did Is What You Get), no writing scripts in various shell and emacs scripting languages, just record and playback, like keyboard macros for the window system.
- tomp 5y ago
  No, I never reboot my Mac. (For reasonable values of "never", e.g. "once every 3 months".) ssh connections fail even with just sleep though, obviously.
  - jraph 5y ago
    I don't rely on it, but I often notice a ssh connection still working after a night with the computer being suspended. It requires two things: - the network does not have a short timeout after which it closes the connection - no side of the connection is trying to do I/O on this connection while one of the computers is sleeping.
tomp 5y ago
I've been using macs for the past 10 years, and I've never had this problem. I've never even thought about it! I close the lid, I open it, it just works. Maybe it's just my (2013 Pro and M1 Air), or maybe in the meantime the quality dipped... All in all, as I often say, the best advertisement for Apple is all the other computers. > I've taken the habit of checking that the computer actually went to sleep before putting it in a bag and you should, too, for the one time your Mac won't go to sleep because who knows why. How would you even do that? If I open the lid (even just a bit), it turns back on immediately. Also, why do you think it would overheat if it accidentally didn't go to sleep? It's not like it's using fans while being turned on.
- jraph 5y ago
  Good for you. You probably happen to use your Macs in a way you don't hit those bugs, and didn't have to deal with faulty hardware. I'm sure things are flawless most of the time too. My computers also go to sleep reliably. They are professional hardware, of good quality, and from different brands. I'm sure other models of other brands or of the same brands have quirks, or that there are people who have problems with the same hardware/software as mine because they use it differently. Maybe it's not that much a Mac vs the rest of the world thing. Evidence is that people have problems with any kind of hardware and brands, this is indisputable. > How would you even do that? There is usually some led visible somewhere, or a small noise, when the thing failed to fall asleep. You know your computer.
  - tomp 5y ago
    Sure, but for a Mac, it's a "bug" or "faulty hardware". For XPS (and presumably many other Windows laptops), it's policy.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Closing the lid has never worked for me on a Windows laptop, even the most expensiveness HP Elitebooks or Dell’a Latitude Pro or whatever. On my MacBook Air, it has never been a problem for 7 years. It is one of the main reasons I moved to Apple, it is just so much more convenient not having to worry about it.