4 ms·

> But every platform you listed is significantly more complex than that. I'd agree with that on the surface but those platforms you listed are basically forums

> But every platform you listed is significantly more complex than that. I'd agree with that on the surface but those platforms you listed are basically forums with a new name! They provide very little over and above that. So, in actual fact, they're only made more complex as a result of rules added by the owners to squeeze as much data from every visitor as is legally (and illegally in some cases) allowed! So they provide nothing of value above a regular forum imo. In reality, they are lists of submissions from end users that have been categorized, however the categorization engine happens to be algorithmically generated, rather than ordered by date. And the companies themselves are doing whatever it takes to monetize your eyeballs regardless of whether it affects your health or not! They are abusing every visitor to the maximum extent that the laws allow! Their business model is to centralize all forums on their platform and for that there is a massive cost at that scale. That's their choice to host all forums! However to pay for that they are abusing every visitor. Using Reddit, a single forum about Ubuntu (/r/Ubuntu) would cost around $5 a month on DO for someone to host themselves. Using something like BBForum or something similar would not require much in the way of maintenance. The point I am making is that all this stuff existed long before the big tech platforms. It can easily exist without them too. They are not actually providing anything of any worth that couldn't easily be found elsewhere (well, used to be found elsewhere!).

yunohn 5y ago
> They provide very little over and above that. For people who love BBForums (like HN tbh), everything may seem “like a forum”. But that is very reductive and uninspired. There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. They are inherently complex and valuable to the majority of their users.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  > There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. Yeah. That's because all those features used to be separate applications, not tied to BBForum/Wikipedia engine. They're all complex, but they're also orthogonal to the platform, and their implementations are pretty much commodities. The only value provided here is by integration with platform (particularly UX-wise). Which seems fine, except the only reason this is valuable in the first place, is because the platforms prevent everyone else from doing such integrations themselves.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    There is incredible value provided by a marketplace having a forum attached to it. It provides trust and community.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  > There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) Of course, these are addons to the platform. But the platform is still the same fundamental application as a forum. Nothing more.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    I don’t think anyone would agree that Snapchat is a forum. It’s primarily for direct (media) messages, and the company themselves considers them a camera app.
    - _Understated_ 5y ago
      > and the company themselves considers them a camera app. Doesn't matter what the company calls themselves, it's a forum that people upload phone pics to and those photos/images are then displayed in an algorithmic form (used to be chronological with forums)... same as a forum! Remember, Google is an advertising company but they'd consider themselves more of an engineering or search company... doesn't mean they're right! Edit: Forgot to ask, how do Snapchat make their money? Is it all through advertising? It's a genuine question, I don't use it and have no idea! If it's all advertising revenue then they're an advertising company like Google and Facebook!
      - yunohn 5y ago
        > I don't use it and have no idea There is no forum aspect to Snapchat. I don’t think you should be arguing about this topic, without having used it. G’day!
mschuster91 5y ago
> Using Reddit, a single forum about Ubuntu (/r/Ubuntu) would cost around $5 a month on DO for someone to host themselves. Using something like BBForum or something similar would not require much in the way of maintenance. For that $5 however, you're not getting DDoS and spam protection. > The point I am making is that all this stuff existed long before the big tech platforms. It can easily exist without them too. They are not actually providing anything of any worth that couldn't easily be found elsewhere (well, used to be found elsewhere!). There's a reason ye olde ways of communication are pretty much dead, replaced by centralized platforms... dealing with the obvious noise of hackers, script-kiddies, spammers, piracy and CSAM is the biggest IMO. As a moderator of a sub-reddit, you don't have to deal with any of that, you are free to focus on moderating content - and unlike mailing lists, usenet or classic forums the users can perform self-moderation by downvoting, further lessening your load.
- _Understated_ 5y ago
  Spam protection has been around for years and years. It's nothing new. Sure, Reddit may have a handful of devs dedicated to perfecting it for their platform but there are a huge number of solutions to spam and I bet many commercial and OSS ones too. DDOS is provided by many hosting companies now for free. Now, I'm not trying to make this out like the Dropbox post many years ago comparing it to self-hosting, nothing of the sort. But Reddit (and other tech giants) provide very little above basic forums imo and in any case, the price is too high!
  - yoz-y 5y ago
    Although the point of being centralised is portrayed as a negative, that is the single largest benefit these platforms provide over forums. Yes it is easy to make a forum and throw it on some low cost hosting, for a person skilled in IT. However FB, Reddit et al. provide a platform (heh) to any kind of group no matter the size. Nobody wants to create dozens of accounts for their local chess club, their local shop, their local pub and whatever. I can be a member of a anti Phillips screw subreddit, but wouldn’t create a forum for it. The value of centralised identity is enormous.

yunohn 5y ago

> They provide very little over and above that. For people who love BBForums (like HN tbh), everything may seem “like a forum”. But that is very reductive and uninspired. There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. They are inherently complex and valuable to the majority of their users.

TeMPOraL 5y ago
> There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. Yeah. That's because all those features used to be separate applications, not tied to BBForum/Wikipedia engine. They're all complex, but they're also orthogonal to the platform, and their implementations are pretty much commodities. The only value provided here is by integration with platform (particularly UX-wise). Which seems fine, except the only reason this is valuable in the first place, is because the platforms prevent everyone else from doing such integrations themselves.
- yunohn 5y ago
  There is incredible value provided by a marketplace having a forum attached to it. It provides trust and community.
_Understated_ 5y ago
> There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) Of course, these are addons to the platform. But the platform is still the same fundamental application as a forum. Nothing more.
- yunohn 5y ago
  I don’t think anyone would agree that Snapchat is a forum. It’s primarily for direct (media) messages, and the company themselves considers them a camera app.
  - _Understated_ 5y ago
    > and the company themselves considers them a camera app. Doesn't matter what the company calls themselves, it's a forum that people upload phone pics to and those photos/images are then displayed in an algorithmic form (used to be chronological with forums)... same as a forum! Remember, Google is an advertising company but they'd consider themselves more of an engineering or search company... doesn't mean they're right! Edit: Forgot to ask, how do Snapchat make their money? Is it all through advertising? It's a genuine question, I don't use it and have no idea! If it's all advertising revenue then they're an advertising company like Google and Facebook!
    - yunohn 5y ago
      > I don't use it and have no idea There is no forum aspect to Snapchat. I don’t think you should be arguing about this topic, without having used it. G’day!

mschuster91 5y ago

> Using Reddit, a single forum about Ubuntu (/r/Ubuntu) would cost around $5 a month on DO for someone to host themselves. Using something like BBForum or something similar would not require much in the way of maintenance. For that $5 however, you're not getting DDoS and spam protection. > The point I am making is that all this stuff existed long before the big tech platforms. It can easily exist without them too. They are not actually providing anything of any worth that couldn't easily be found elsewhere (well, used to be found elsewhere!). There's a reason ye olde ways of communication are pretty much dead, replaced by centralized platforms... dealing with the obvious noise of hackers, script-kiddies, spammers, piracy and CSAM is the biggest IMO. As a moderator of a sub-reddit, you don't have to deal with any of that, you are free to focus on moderating content - and unlike mailing lists, usenet or classic forums the users can perform self-moderation by downvoting, further lessening your load.

_Understated_ 5y ago
Spam protection has been around for years and years. It's nothing new. Sure, Reddit may have a handful of devs dedicated to perfecting it for their platform but there are a huge number of solutions to spam and I bet many commercial and OSS ones too. DDOS is provided by many hosting companies now for free. Now, I'm not trying to make this out like the Dropbox post many years ago comparing it to self-hosting, nothing of the sort. But Reddit (and other tech giants) provide very little above basic forums imo and in any case, the price is too high!
- yoz-y 5y ago
  Although the point of being centralised is portrayed as a negative, that is the single largest benefit these platforms provide over forums. Yes it is easy to make a forum and throw it on some low cost hosting, for a person skilled in IT. However FB, Reddit et al. provide a platform (heh) to any kind of group no matter the size. Nobody wants to create dozens of accounts for their local chess club, their local shop, their local pub and whatever. I can be a member of a anti Phillips screw subreddit, but wouldn’t create a forum for it. The value of centralised identity is enormous.