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The comparison to the Dropbox comment is very fair. I maintain that I paid the piper his dues; it's complicated, but not complex, and I would never dare charge

The comparison to the Dropbox comment is very fair. I maintain that I paid the piper his dues; it's complicated, but not complex, and I would never dare charge that I could make an equivalent service. However, I do charge that it's extremely overblown.

yunohn 5y ago
> it's complicated, but not complex These are synonyms. Please disambiguate with contextual examples, if you believe otherwise. There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. They are inherently complex and valuable to the majority of their users.
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  > [complicated, complex] are synonyms. I mean, sure, but you can't just swap them in and out like that - you can have something complicated which is not complex (say a knitting pattern with four colours) and something complex which is not complicated ("put this arrow into the centre of that target").
  - yunohn 5y ago
    I asked for contextual examples, not random ones. Though I guess if we’re in a thread of people reducing various platforms to a BBForum/Wikipedia, it wouldn’t make any sense to them.
    - zimpenfish 5y ago
      > I asked for contextual examples, not random ones. I was merely pointing out that you can't toss off "complex and complicated are synonyms" as some kind of argument "gotcha".
      - yunohn 5y ago
        There was no gotcha. If the commenter claims their point revolves around the difference in meaning between two synonyms, they should explain themselves better in the given context.
- deathcakes 5y ago
  They aren't synonyms, though they are related concepts: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10459/what-is-the-difference-between-complicated-and-complex https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10459/what-is-th... I admit the distinction got me at first as it is quite a subtle one but the point made by the parent commenter is valid.
- cybernautique 5y ago
  I'll compare them to a BBForum/Wikipedia. I disagree that these features are inherently valuable; in fact, I disagree that they have any value at all. As far as I'm concerned, the basis of any media enterprise is the generation, dissemination, and moderation of content. The smallest, most well-known, prototype of an enterprise that accomplishes all three is Wikipedia. Aside from these features, anything extra is cruft. Yes, this is overly-reductionist, weirdly neo-ludditic, and speaks past your points without paying your arguments the proper dues. We're cross-talking because we have different values; I do not value the things that you value. The games, filters, marketplace, and messenger you mention are not features. They are deficiently complicated ways to achieve the core features of media enterprise; further, I don't think they're valuable media to deliver in the first place. As to how I disambiguate complexity vs complicatedness, the first relates to the variety of interactions in a system while complicatedness relates to the sum total state of a system. A system with one node whose only input is its output, which outputs a TB of data to itself every second, and which stores all data it generates, is complicated. A system with two nodes, whose only inputs are each others' outputs, where one generates a byte of data every century and neither saves state, is more complex than the first but less complicated, and the converse is true. I only consider the complicatedness vs complexity of features that _I_ deem worthwhile; if I don't consider a feature worthwhile, then all of its complexity is just cruft, which gets lumped into the less-granular metric of complicatedness. I don't deem any of the features you mention (which differentiate FB, etc., from Wikipedia) to be worthwhile; therefore, they're all just more complicated versions of Wikipedia, without any meaningful improvements in the base complexity. Also, how inherently complex are these features? Can you give me a best-case complexity? How are you measuring this 'inherent complexity'? I've read through your replies to this thread. If I had your values, I'd agree heartily with you. What you say makes sense, your arguments are well-reasoned, and you present yourself well. I sincerely appreciate that you've taken the time to engage. I hope I've confirmed the suspicion that seems to be built into your replies: our disagreement is not logical. It's entirely based on a difference in our values.

yunohn 5y ago

> it's complicated, but not complex These are synonyms. Please disambiguate with contextual examples, if you believe otherwise. There are various features provided by Snapchat (camera, filters, games) and FB (marketplace, messenger) that nobody would ever compare to a BBForum/Wikipedia. They are inherently complex and valuable to the majority of their users.

zimpenfish 5y ago
> [complicated, complex] are synonyms. I mean, sure, but you can't just swap them in and out like that - you can have something complicated which is not complex (say a knitting pattern with four colours) and something complex which is not complicated ("put this arrow into the centre of that target").
- yunohn 5y ago
  I asked for contextual examples, not random ones. Though I guess if we’re in a thread of people reducing various platforms to a BBForum/Wikipedia, it wouldn’t make any sense to them.
  - zimpenfish 5y ago
    > I asked for contextual examples, not random ones. I was merely pointing out that you can't toss off "complex and complicated are synonyms" as some kind of argument "gotcha".
    - yunohn 5y ago
      There was no gotcha. If the commenter claims their point revolves around the difference in meaning between two synonyms, they should explain themselves better in the given context.
deathcakes 5y ago
They aren't synonyms, though they are related concepts: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10459/what-is-the-difference-between-complicated-and-complex https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10459/what-is-th... I admit the distinction got me at first as it is quite a subtle one but the point made by the parent commenter is valid.
cybernautique 5y ago
I'll compare them to a BBForum/Wikipedia. I disagree that these features are inherently valuable; in fact, I disagree that they have any value at all. As far as I'm concerned, the basis of any media enterprise is the generation, dissemination, and moderation of content. The smallest, most well-known, prototype of an enterprise that accomplishes all three is Wikipedia. Aside from these features, anything extra is cruft. Yes, this is overly-reductionist, weirdly neo-ludditic, and speaks past your points without paying your arguments the proper dues. We're cross-talking because we have different values; I do not value the things that you value. The games, filters, marketplace, and messenger you mention are not features. They are deficiently complicated ways to achieve the core features of media enterprise; further, I don't think they're valuable media to deliver in the first place. As to how I disambiguate complexity vs complicatedness, the first relates to the variety of interactions in a system while complicatedness relates to the sum total state of a system. A system with one node whose only input is its output, which outputs a TB of data to itself every second, and which stores all data it generates, is complicated. A system with two nodes, whose only inputs are each others' outputs, where one generates a byte of data every century and neither saves state, is more complex than the first but less complicated, and the converse is true. I only consider the complicatedness vs complexity of features that _I_ deem worthwhile; if I don't consider a feature worthwhile, then all of its complexity is just cruft, which gets lumped into the less-granular metric of complicatedness. I don't deem any of the features you mention (which differentiate FB, etc., from Wikipedia) to be worthwhile; therefore, they're all just more complicated versions of Wikipedia, without any meaningful improvements in the base complexity. Also, how inherently complex are these features? Can you give me a best-case complexity? How are you measuring this 'inherent complexity'? I've read through your replies to this thread. If I had your values, I'd agree heartily with you. What you say makes sense, your arguments are well-reasoned, and you present yourself well. I sincerely appreciate that you've taken the time to engage. I hope I've confirmed the suspicion that seems to be built into your replies: our disagreement is not logical. It's entirely based on a difference in our values.