5 ms·

Whatever it is you want to say, just say it.

31 points by raganwald 15y ago

astine 15y ago
I disagree. Before stating an unpopular opinion, it is sometimes helpful to make it clear that you understand that the opinion is unpopular and that you (probably) have a reason for bringing it up. Doing so tells people that maybe you have something novel to say on the issue and that they should give you fair hearing before assuming you are simply echoing an opinion that they decided they disliked long ago. Now, I see HNers using that phrase to elicit sympathy for opinions that aren't actually unpopular from time to time and that should stop, but sometimes you have to say "now hear me out," so you don't get shouted down.
wccrawford 15y ago
I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but... He's wrong. It's a defense against the situation that already exists, not something that is creating the situation. That statement actually DOES make people pause and think about why they are downvoting. Don't blame the player, blame the game. (I was going to add a disclaimer that I didn't really expect downvotes, but the statement now seems like trolling and I DO expect downvotes... But with this disclaimer I don't again. It's all very confusing.)
- mechanical_fish 15y ago
  [removes coin from pocket] [flips coin: heads] Okay, I won't downvote you this time. Please, do not tease Two-Face again. And if you feel the need to deploy "defense" against downvotes, you are either saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly defensive and thereby undermining your own point. If what you're saying isn't worth potentially being downvoted for, delete it. The impulse to write "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this" can actually be quite healthy. When you find yourself typing that sentence, it's your subconscious telling you that you need to change something. Most likely, your subconscious is telling you to delete the comment and step away from the keyboard for several hours. Or, save the comment to an offline buffer where it can be recovered by future archaeologists. Or, write a different comment. Or, rephrase the comment. Or: Read the comment, take a deep breath, grow some courage, delete the disclaimer, and press Reply.
  - bendotc 15y ago
    "And if you feel the need to deploy 'defense' against downvotes, you are either saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly defensive and thereby undermining your own point." The place I have used this rhetorical technique (and I'm ashamed to admit I have, 'cause I find it irksome myself), is when I'm posting something I believe is correct or worth considering, but which goes against the overriding sentiment of the site. I believe it disarms people's unthinking, reflexive downvote, though I have only my own experience to draw this from. Maybe you think this is being "needlessly defensive", but that sounds like someone who's never had a comment downvoted to oblivion only because its sentiment is unpopular. I'm not really sure why being defensive would undermine someone's point. "If what you're saying isn't worth potentially being downvoted for, delete it." The point isn't the negative karma (though that is a motivator for most people), the point is that down-votes mean something is less likely to be read (due to mechanical filtering), or will be read as a troll rather than as a reasonable opinion. People put some stock in the hivemind's opinions. To reiterate what the post you replied to said: don't hate the player, hate the game.
    - raganwald 15y ago
      I'm not really sure why being defensive would undermine someone's point. When you begin your point with something other than your point, you undermine your argument. This is true even when you say something popular. If you begin a point with “As everybody agrees, ...” You have wasted the three most precious opening words on something other than whatever it is everybody agrees is the case. don't hate the player, hate the game. I am not hating the player, if I didn’t care what people had to say I wouldn’t be suggesting ways to say it more effectively. I also don’t hate the game, in fact I am giving you strategies for playing it well. Speaking of which, here is another: Be careful with clichés like this. Their real value is as a social signal, a way of telling people “I’m hip, you’re hip, we are the same kind of person, vote for me.” They don’t actually make your point very well. In most cases, they have become so overused that people register their tone and move along without giving them much thought. If what you want is to establish that tone and encourage people to respond favourably to you and your words because of your style and tone, carry on. However, if what you want is to persuade people of your point, I suggest arguing your point more directly and eschew rhetorical tricks. I don’t know how you perceive things, but my impression is that discussion on site slike reddit are dominated by rhetorical tricks, memes, puns, and other instances where social signalling dominates discussion. Hacker News is not immune to this, but it is certainly more understated and at least attempts to prefer reasoned discussion to ad hominems and other emotional devices. JM2C, YMMV ;-)
- dpark 15y ago
  The likelihood that I'll downvote goes up by about %300 when the comment leads with "I know I'll get downvoted...". Quite aside from the fact that it detracts from the actual point, it comes off as karma begging. It's a lot like begging for compliments, and it comes off as petty.
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    I actually have an inner debate with myself about it each time I write it. I know there are people like you (and apparently the article author) that will automatically downvote something because it says not to. But I also know when to disarm someone's reflexive voting and get my voice heard. The vast majority of my comments (even quite a few unfavorable ones) don't get that statement at the beginning. Most of the time, it really is a negative. As with all speech, it's all about knowing when and how to use it. There are very few statements that should -never- be used.
    - dpark 15y ago
      > There are very few statements that should -never- be used. I can agree with that. There undoubtedly are times when the "this might get downvoted..." lead-in is a net positive. As you said, though, it's normally a negative. It's also very overused by drama-queens who are just begging for upvotes.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
florianfeder 15y ago
What about phrases like "In opinion..." or even the simple "I think..."? Clearly whatever you say is what you think and is obviously your opinion. No need for those phrases. It strikes me that they are meant as signs of respect for the other discussion participants. They indicate that you will respect other opinions.
rwmj 15y ago
Slashdot's moderation system got this almost right. Instead of up and down votes, you have to choose from categories: - offtopic - flamebait - troll - redundant - insightful - interesting - informative and unfortunately two final categories which are misused as up/downvotes ("underrated" and "overrated"). Although people can use some of those as proxies for up/downvote, they don't tend to, and you can see that they don't in meta-moderation.
tomthought 15y ago
Maybe there could be two parallel comments sections: one for commentary on the subject, and one for meta-commentary.
- raganwald 15y ago
  I’ve always liked this idea, especially if moderators could move comments into the “meta-“ section.
StavrosK 15y ago
I've found that saying "I'll get downvoted for this" primes people to accept a dissenting opinion, and reminds them to not be so susceptible to groupthink. It's the same as "Why are you downvoting the parent? He makes a good point." when the point is fair, but unpopular. It usually leads to an upwards correction.
- raganwald 15y ago
  I’ve also found that ad hominem abuse is officially discouraged, but in practice is very effective at winning an argument. Alas, none of this changes the fact that it is noise and not signal. In my experience, if a comment is unpopular and gets some downvotes, eventually someone will reply, the author will retort effectively, and then votes will swing the other way as people reading the thread cotton on to the idea that it’s a good point even if it’s unpopular. Have a little patience. Things will work themselves out, and even if they don’t, why be so invested in points that you need to spend a lot of time strategizing and engaging in rhetorical devices?
kenjackson 15y ago
In general I wouldn't mind downvoting, except for the fact that the text gets lighter as you go below zero. I know I often skip over such text, not because I know its been downvoted, but it gets much harder to read (although on occassion I'll highlight it to make it easier to read). If we got rid of the font effect and maybe did something like just put the karma score for comments below one, I would be almost completely indifferent to downvotes.
- demallien 15y ago
  The strong tendency to downvote ad-hominen / abusive comments on HN has really improved my ability to write comments that are informative and non-inflammatory. That's the good news. The bad news is that the comments that I make that get lots of votes tend to be on bike-shedding topics - things that everyone has an opinion on, such as sexual harrassment in the community, or military toys, or HN meta-discussions. Posts that I consider authoritive (and there are _some_ subjects on which I can talk authoritively!) rarely get many points, typically just 3 or 4. In my opinion, it is this tendency that drives the reddit-isation of social news sites. So, how can we keep the good effects of points (keeping the tone polite), and get rid of the bike-shedding? Well, personally I think it would be good if you got a point for each comment/subcomment made off of your comment. Comments can be flagged with a category:inflammatory/abusive/off-topic. Each flag loses you a point. Points are only visible to the author of a comment. Flag categories are tracked separately so that the author of a comment can see if they are getting flagged for being off-topic, or poor tone, or whatever. I would like to be able to say that we shouldn't care about points, but they really have helped me in making my posts more informative and less inflammatory, so I think they do have some benefit. It's just that the current system has some negative unintended consequences...
  - raganwald 15y ago
    That’s really insightful, thank you.
  - yid 15y ago
    Social news voting reflects the opinions of the masses. A specialist's authoritative, reasoned opinion is unlikely to be recognized as such, unless it happens to go along with the momentum of public opinion. It's hardly a problem unique to social news -- see Wikipedia, general elections, cable news commentary, prediction market failures, etc. When everyone's vote counts the same, the most popular opinion wins.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
You should have applied your advise to your post. There was a lot of unnecessary ornaments around your point.
- raganwald 15y ago
  Great advice, thank you.
clintjhill 15y ago
This feels similar to the advice I give my kids. When they get into circumstances where fighting feels like an option, I remind them to "use their words". I try to emphasize that not everyone they meet will "use their words" and that the smarter person should. The down vote seems similar to me. Instead of down voting, try using your words. And when you're down voted, use your words. A down vote is a lost opportunity to extend the argument. It's an absolute with no explanation in of itself. In my opinion - worthless.
Graumis 15y ago
IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on making points. Consider that the success of science is more due to its reliance on the scientific method than the brilliance of its theoreticians. I believe that the process by which a conclusion is reached is more important than the conclusion itself. There is entirely too little attention payed to error management.

31 points by raganwald 15y ago

I disagree. Before stating an unpopular opinion, it is sometimes helpful to make it clear that you understand that the opinion is unpopular and that you (probably) have a reason for bringing it up. Doing so tells people that maybe you have something novel to say on the issue and that they should give you fair hearing before assuming you are simply echoing an opinion that they decided they disliked long ago. Now, I see HNers using that phrase to elicit sympathy for opinions that aren't actually unpopular from time to time and that should stop, but sometimes you have to say "now hear me out," so you don't get shouted down.

wccrawford 15y ago

I'm probably going to get downvoted for this, but... He's wrong. It's a defense against the situation that already exists, not something that is creating the situation. That statement actually DOES make people pause and think about why they are downvoting. Don't blame the player, blame the game. (I was going to add a disclaimer that I didn't really expect downvotes, but the statement now seems like trolling and I DO expect downvotes... But with this disclaimer I don't again. It's all very confusing.)

mechanical_fish 15y ago
[removes coin from pocket] [flips coin: heads] Okay, I won't downvote you this time. Please, do not tease Two-Face again. And if you feel the need to deploy "defense" against downvotes, you are either saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly defensive and thereby undermining your own point. If what you're saying isn't worth potentially being downvoted for, delete it. The impulse to write "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this" can actually be quite healthy. When you find yourself typing that sentence, it's your subconscious telling you that you need to change something. Most likely, your subconscious is telling you to delete the comment and step away from the keyboard for several hours. Or, save the comment to an offline buffer where it can be recovered by future archaeologists. Or, write a different comment. Or, rephrase the comment. Or: Read the comment, take a deep breath, grow some courage, delete the disclaimer, and press Reply.
- bendotc 15y ago
  "And if you feel the need to deploy 'defense' against downvotes, you are either saying things that don't need to be said, or you are being needlessly defensive and thereby undermining your own point." The place I have used this rhetorical technique (and I'm ashamed to admit I have, 'cause I find it irksome myself), is when I'm posting something I believe is correct or worth considering, but which goes against the overriding sentiment of the site. I believe it disarms people's unthinking, reflexive downvote, though I have only my own experience to draw this from. Maybe you think this is being "needlessly defensive", but that sounds like someone who's never had a comment downvoted to oblivion only because its sentiment is unpopular. I'm not really sure why being defensive would undermine someone's point. "If what you're saying isn't worth potentially being downvoted for, delete it." The point isn't the negative karma (though that is a motivator for most people), the point is that down-votes mean something is less likely to be read (due to mechanical filtering), or will be read as a troll rather than as a reasonable opinion. People put some stock in the hivemind's opinions. To reiterate what the post you replied to said: don't hate the player, hate the game.
  - raganwald 15y ago
    I'm not really sure why being defensive would undermine someone's point. When you begin your point with something other than your point, you undermine your argument. This is true even when you say something popular. If you begin a point with “As everybody agrees, ...” You have wasted the three most precious opening words on something other than whatever it is everybody agrees is the case. don't hate the player, hate the game. I am not hating the player, if I didn’t care what people had to say I wouldn’t be suggesting ways to say it more effectively. I also don’t hate the game, in fact I am giving you strategies for playing it well. Speaking of which, here is another: Be careful with clichés like this. Their real value is as a social signal, a way of telling people “I’m hip, you’re hip, we are the same kind of person, vote for me.” They don’t actually make your point very well. In most cases, they have become so overused that people register their tone and move along without giving them much thought. If what you want is to establish that tone and encourage people to respond favourably to you and your words because of your style and tone, carry on. However, if what you want is to persuade people of your point, I suggest arguing your point more directly and eschew rhetorical tricks. I don’t know how you perceive things, but my impression is that discussion on site slike reddit are dominated by rhetorical tricks, memes, puns, and other instances where social signalling dominates discussion. Hacker News is not immune to this, but it is certainly more understated and at least attempts to prefer reasoned discussion to ad hominems and other emotional devices. JM2C, YMMV ;-)
dpark 15y ago
The likelihood that I'll downvote goes up by about %300 when the comment leads with "I know I'll get downvoted...". Quite aside from the fact that it detracts from the actual point, it comes off as karma begging. It's a lot like begging for compliments, and it comes off as petty.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  I actually have an inner debate with myself about it each time I write it. I know there are people like you (and apparently the article author) that will automatically downvote something because it says not to. But I also know when to disarm someone's reflexive voting and get my voice heard. The vast majority of my comments (even quite a few unfavorable ones) don't get that statement at the beginning. Most of the time, it really is a negative. As with all speech, it's all about knowing when and how to use it. There are very few statements that should -never- be used.
  - dpark 15y ago
    > There are very few statements that should -never- be used. I can agree with that. There undoubtedly are times when the "this might get downvoted..." lead-in is a net positive. As you said, though, it's normally a negative. It's also very overused by drama-queens who are just begging for upvotes.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

florianfeder 15y ago

What about phrases like "In opinion..." or even the simple "I think..."? Clearly whatever you say is what you think and is obviously your opinion. No need for those phrases. It strikes me that they are meant as signs of respect for the other discussion participants. They indicate that you will respect other opinions.

rwmj 15y ago

Slashdot's moderation system got this almost right. Instead of up and down votes, you have to choose from categories: - offtopic - flamebait - troll - redundant - insightful - interesting - informative and unfortunately two final categories which are misused as up/downvotes ("underrated" and "overrated"). Although people can use some of those as proxies for up/downvote, they don't tend to, and you can see that they don't in meta-moderation.

tomthought 15y ago

Maybe there could be two parallel comments sections: one for commentary on the subject, and one for meta-commentary.

raganwald 15y ago
I’ve always liked this idea, especially if moderators could move comments into the “meta-“ section.

StavrosK 15y ago

I've found that saying "I'll get downvoted for this" primes people to accept a dissenting opinion, and reminds them to not be so susceptible to groupthink. It's the same as "Why are you downvoting the parent? He makes a good point." when the point is fair, but unpopular. It usually leads to an upwards correction.

raganwald 15y ago
I’ve also found that ad hominem abuse is officially discouraged, but in practice is very effective at winning an argument. Alas, none of this changes the fact that it is noise and not signal. In my experience, if a comment is unpopular and gets some downvotes, eventually someone will reply, the author will retort effectively, and then votes will swing the other way as people reading the thread cotton on to the idea that it’s a good point even if it’s unpopular. Have a little patience. Things will work themselves out, and even if they don’t, why be so invested in points that you need to spend a lot of time strategizing and engaging in rhetorical devices?

kenjackson 15y ago

In general I wouldn't mind downvoting, except for the fact that the text gets lighter as you go below zero. I know I often skip over such text, not because I know its been downvoted, but it gets much harder to read (although on occassion I'll highlight it to make it easier to read). If we got rid of the font effect and maybe did something like just put the karma score for comments below one, I would be almost completely indifferent to downvotes.

demallien 15y ago
The strong tendency to downvote ad-hominen / abusive comments on HN has really improved my ability to write comments that are informative and non-inflammatory. That's the good news. The bad news is that the comments that I make that get lots of votes tend to be on bike-shedding topics - things that everyone has an opinion on, such as sexual harrassment in the community, or military toys, or HN meta-discussions. Posts that I consider authoritive (and there are _some_ subjects on which I can talk authoritively!) rarely get many points, typically just 3 or 4. In my opinion, it is this tendency that drives the reddit-isation of social news sites. So, how can we keep the good effects of points (keeping the tone polite), and get rid of the bike-shedding? Well, personally I think it would be good if you got a point for each comment/subcomment made off of your comment. Comments can be flagged with a category:inflammatory/abusive/off-topic. Each flag loses you a point. Points are only visible to the author of a comment. Flag categories are tracked separately so that the author of a comment can see if they are getting flagged for being off-topic, or poor tone, or whatever. I would like to be able to say that we shouldn't care about points, but they really have helped me in making my posts more informative and less inflammatory, so I think they do have some benefit. It's just that the current system has some negative unintended consequences...
- raganwald 15y ago
  That’s really insightful, thank you.
- yid 15y ago
  Social news voting reflects the opinions of the masses. A specialist's authoritative, reasoned opinion is unlikely to be recognized as such, unless it happens to go along with the momentum of public opinion. It's hardly a problem unique to social news -- see Wikipedia, general elections, cable news commentary, prediction market failures, etc. When everyone's vote counts the same, the most popular opinion wins.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

You should have applied your advise to your post. There was a lot of unnecessary ornaments around your point.

raganwald 15y ago
Great advice, thank you.

clintjhill 15y ago

This feels similar to the advice I give my kids. When they get into circumstances where fighting feels like an option, I remind them to "use their words". I try to emphasize that not everyone they meet will "use their words" and that the smarter person should. The down vote seems similar to me. Instead of down voting, try using your words. And when you're down voted, use your words. A down vote is a lost opportunity to extend the argument. It's an absolute with no explanation in of itself. In my opinion - worthless.

Graumis 15y ago

IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on making points. Consider that the success of science is more due to its reliance on the scientific method than the brilliance of its theoreticians. I believe that the process by which a conclusion is reached is more important than the conclusion itself. There is entirely too little attention payed to error management.