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Can't get paid more than 1500 in cash in France. 2000 Pounds is "a lot of money" to exchange in the UK. The limits are suspiciously higher if you're well dresse

by bserge 5y ago

Can't get paid more than 1500 in cash in France. 2000 Pounds is "a lot of money" to exchange in the UK. The limits are suspiciously higher if you're well dressed and stepping out of an expensive car or moving millions. Tells you how pathetically poor the poor really are.

SilasX 5y ago
"And the brilliant part is, we have inflation as a matter of policy, and never update the threshold, so eventually the limit is meaningless and we can seize all cash!"
godelski 5y ago
There's a proposal for a new fed program that will track anything over $600 in the US now[0]. It is pretty much aimed at gig workers. Previously the IRS just didn't care about anyone below the poverty line. I'm not sure I'm even fine with the spirit of what is happening here, since these people would be getting that money back in refunds anyways. Also, I think a problem is that it is placing the burden on people who already don't have money, by complicating their taxes. It's weird to see banks and credit unions sending petitions around[1]. But this is also why I'm nervous about a fed crypto coin. [0] https://www.bloomberglaw.com/product/tax/bloombergtaxnews/daily-tax-report/XM2J61K000000 https://www.bloomberglaw.com/product/tax/bloombergtaxnews/da... [1] https://www.cuna.org/advocacy/actions/grassroot-action-center.html?vvsrc=%2fCampaigns%2f87852%2fRespond%3fvvsn%3dBAAAAA9bACscVAdVe0Y7FAA https://www.cuna.org/advocacy/actions/grassroot-action-cente...
- version_five 5y ago
  I think there is a sort of "war on the poor" going on (or escalating really). Not specifically organized, but pushing into areas that have an outsized impact on the poor and finding no resistance because they don't push back. Think of most consumer facing environmental laws (emissions, charge for bags, bike lanes etc), car seat laws, health stuff - like basically any covid rule, it's all super regressive. I think there is positive feedback because it keeps the poor "in their place" while simultaneously signaling how progressive the proponents are. Expect it to get a lot worse.
  - godelski 5y ago
    > Not specifically organized, but pushing into areas that have an outsized impact on the poor and finding no resistance because they don't push back. I would definitely call this emergence[0]. For example the IRS has been known to push more against poor people than rich people because it is simply easier. That isn't IRS officials taking the stance "fuck poor people" but rather that it is extremely frustrating to go after rich people who have massive amounts of wealth and are using that power to make it very difficult for auditors to track everything. We see this kind of emergence happen all over, where people aren't doing things that are actually planned but patterns emerge. I think economists would mostly agree and just point to incentive structures, but I don't think this is a common way of thinking. Anyways, I fully agree that we shouldn't be pushing regressive systems. Even if it is easier. Maybe we should start thinking about "Not because they are easy, but because they are hard." [0] Actually I think a lot of what people believe is "deep state" and organized actors can more easily be explained by emergence.
    - version_five 5y ago
      I definitely agree with you that most of what looks like deliberate planning in complex systems is emergent behavior. Deliberate planning (in complex systems I mean) can usually be recognized because of how poorly it works.
    - MichaelZuo 5y ago
      It’s not at all clear that it’s more frustrating per dollar recoverable, for the IRS. It may be that agents aren’t evaluated on a total dollars recovered basis but a number of case closed basis. Which would directly explain why going after easily provable cases makes sense.
- chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
  I remember seeing increased IRS enforcement as one of the payment methods for the recent U.S. infrastructure bill, and thinking about how that really meant taxing the poor: "One of the starkest differences is who will pay for it all. While Biden pledged to increase corporate income taxes to fund infrastructure, Republicans drew a line in the sand. The new deal pulls together a patchwork of increased IRS enforcement, selling off petroleum reserves, [...]" [0] [0] https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-06-24/factbox-bidens-bipartisan-infrastructure-deal-came-with-sacrifices https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-06-24/factbox-b...
- curryst 5y ago
  They would get their income tax back, but not payroll taxes. The distinction is important because Social Security only applies on income up to ~$140k (this year). Due to that, the amount of Social Security tax revenue from a poor person is fairly close to the amount paid by someone rich. A family of 4 at the federal poverty line ($26,500/year) pays $1,643 dollars to Social Security. Someone who makes $4M/year pays $8,853.60. So 5 families at the poverty line == 1 bajillionaire from a Social Security perspective. I'm not in favor of the proposal, but it's not as absurd as it looks, policy wise. Morally, I would agree with you. This is an inevitable outcome of combining low wages and 1099s. It's really hard to force yourself to put your payroll taxes away in savings when you're only netting $7/hr and your bills are past due. It does also put them in a position where they should really have a tax professional, instead of just doing TurboTax or whatever.
  - godelski 5y ago
    I mean I know it is harder to go after rich people with lawyers and tax accountants, but fuck man I don't think it is right to go after people below the poverty line.
Y_Y 5y ago
Really? Retail businesses move much larger amounts of cash every day, private citizens (rich and poor alike) rarely see more than a couple of hundred at a time. At least this is my experience.
biztos 5y ago
Meanwhile, in the eastern parts of the EU, it’s totally common to transact tens of thousands of Euros in cash, with lawyers preparing the contracts and observing the counting of the cash, especially for real estate. Less common but not exactly rare in Spain, I would assume also Greece and Portugal. Can’t comment of France but in Germany it would be really weird, though probably legal.
- em-bee 5y ago
  there is a tv show in germany where people are selling rare art-works to dealers which routinely hand over 10000-20000 euro in cash. still unusual, but it's definitely happening.
- fy20 5y ago
  I'm building a house, and throughout the process have kept petty cash of €10k for when we receive a bill. Most people will accept a bank transfer, but you need to pay extra - suspiciously the extra amount is always equal to the amount of income tax they'd need to pay ;-) The government have tried to crack down on this by increasing ATM fees and imposing daily limits, but I don't think it will really change anything.
  - MichaelZuo 5y ago
    Do the tax authorities just accept that home building contractors pay close to zero net taxes year after year?

by bserge 5y ago

SilasX 5y ago

"And the brilliant part is, we have inflation as a matter of policy, and never update the threshold, so eventually the limit is meaningless and we can seize all cash!"

godelski 5y ago

There's a proposal for a new fed program that will track anything over $600 in the US now[0]. It is pretty much aimed at gig workers. Previously the IRS just didn't care about anyone below the poverty line. I'm not sure I'm even fine with the spirit of what is happening here, since these people would be getting that money back in refunds anyways. Also, I think a problem is that it is placing the burden on people who already don't have money, by complicating their taxes. It's weird to see banks and credit unions sending petitions around[1]. But this is also why I'm nervous about a fed crypto coin. [0] https://www.bloomberglaw.com/product/tax/bloombergtaxnews/daily-tax-report/XM2J61K000000 https://www.bloomberglaw.com/product/tax/bloombergtaxnews/da... [1] https://www.cuna.org/advocacy/actions/grassroot-action-center.html?vvsrc=%2fCampaigns%2f87852%2fRespond%3fvvsn%3dBAAAAA9bACscVAdVe0Y7FAA https://www.cuna.org/advocacy/actions/grassroot-action-cente...

version_five 5y ago
I think there is a sort of "war on the poor" going on (or escalating really). Not specifically organized, but pushing into areas that have an outsized impact on the poor and finding no resistance because they don't push back. Think of most consumer facing environmental laws (emissions, charge for bags, bike lanes etc), car seat laws, health stuff - like basically any covid rule, it's all super regressive. I think there is positive feedback because it keeps the poor "in their place" while simultaneously signaling how progressive the proponents are. Expect it to get a lot worse.
- godelski 5y ago
  > Not specifically organized, but pushing into areas that have an outsized impact on the poor and finding no resistance because they don't push back. I would definitely call this emergence[0]. For example the IRS has been known to push more against poor people than rich people because it is simply easier. That isn't IRS officials taking the stance "fuck poor people" but rather that it is extremely frustrating to go after rich people who have massive amounts of wealth and are using that power to make it very difficult for auditors to track everything. We see this kind of emergence happen all over, where people aren't doing things that are actually planned but patterns emerge. I think economists would mostly agree and just point to incentive structures, but I don't think this is a common way of thinking. Anyways, I fully agree that we shouldn't be pushing regressive systems. Even if it is easier. Maybe we should start thinking about "Not because they are easy, but because they are hard." [0] Actually I think a lot of what people believe is "deep state" and organized actors can more easily be explained by emergence.
  - version_five 5y ago
    I definitely agree with you that most of what looks like deliberate planning in complex systems is emergent behavior. Deliberate planning (in complex systems I mean) can usually be recognized because of how poorly it works.
  - MichaelZuo 5y ago
    It’s not at all clear that it’s more frustrating per dollar recoverable, for the IRS. It may be that agents aren’t evaluated on a total dollars recovered basis but a number of case closed basis. Which would directly explain why going after easily provable cases makes sense.
chiefofgxbxl 5y ago
I remember seeing increased IRS enforcement as one of the payment methods for the recent U.S. infrastructure bill, and thinking about how that really meant taxing the poor: "One of the starkest differences is who will pay for it all. While Biden pledged to increase corporate income taxes to fund infrastructure, Republicans drew a line in the sand. The new deal pulls together a patchwork of increased IRS enforcement, selling off petroleum reserves, [...]" [0] [0] https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-06-24/factbox-bidens-bipartisan-infrastructure-deal-came-with-sacrifices https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-06-24/factbox-b...
curryst 5y ago
They would get their income tax back, but not payroll taxes. The distinction is important because Social Security only applies on income up to ~$140k (this year). Due to that, the amount of Social Security tax revenue from a poor person is fairly close to the amount paid by someone rich. A family of 4 at the federal poverty line ($26,500/year) pays $1,643 dollars to Social Security. Someone who makes $4M/year pays $8,853.60. So 5 families at the poverty line == 1 bajillionaire from a Social Security perspective. I'm not in favor of the proposal, but it's not as absurd as it looks, policy wise. Morally, I would agree with you. This is an inevitable outcome of combining low wages and 1099s. It's really hard to force yourself to put your payroll taxes away in savings when you're only netting $7/hr and your bills are past due. It does also put them in a position where they should really have a tax professional, instead of just doing TurboTax or whatever.
- godelski 5y ago
  I mean I know it is harder to go after rich people with lawyers and tax accountants, but fuck man I don't think it is right to go after people below the poverty line.

Y_Y 5y ago

Really? Retail businesses move much larger amounts of cash every day, private citizens (rich and poor alike) rarely see more than a couple of hundred at a time. At least this is my experience.

biztos 5y ago

Meanwhile, in the eastern parts of the EU, it’s totally common to transact tens of thousands of Euros in cash, with lawyers preparing the contracts and observing the counting of the cash, especially for real estate. Less common but not exactly rare in Spain, I would assume also Greece and Portugal. Can’t comment of France but in Germany it would be really weird, though probably legal.

em-bee 5y ago
there is a tv show in germany where people are selling rare art-works to dealers which routinely hand over 10000-20000 euro in cash. still unusual, but it's definitely happening.
fy20 5y ago
I'm building a house, and throughout the process have kept petty cash of €10k for when we receive a bill. Most people will accept a bank transfer, but you need to pay extra - suspiciously the extra amount is always equal to the amount of income tax they'd need to pay ;-) The government have tried to crack down on this by increasing ATM fees and imposing daily limits, but I don't think it will really change anything.
- MichaelZuo 5y ago
  Do the tax authorities just accept that home building contractors pay close to zero net taxes year after year?