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I think "the rain dances cause rain circular logic" would be true if (and a big if) it weren't for other states trying different, less strict strategies. Clear

I think "the rain dances cause rain circular logic" would be true if (and a big if) it weren't for other states trying different, less strict strategies. Clearly some states are explicitly not rain dancing and are facing headwinds. And that's the beauty of state and to some extent even more locally based strategies versus national mandates. As long as there is a national agreed upon mechanism for measurement - its actually quite great that some states are willing to be guinea pigs and their citizenry are willing to go with different riskier strategies and experiments. In fact the steadfastness and persistence of some states sticking to their strategies even in the face of significant headwinds is a plus as it creates an even richer dataset for research and analysis. The headwinds these states are facing provides assurance to those in states with the stricter mandates that the mandates aren't just a pure power grab and government control and actually do have a benefit that is measurable.

spookthesunset 5y ago
> its actually quite great that some states are willing to be guinea pigs and their citizenry are willing to go with different riskier strategies and experiments. I mean technocracy is great an all... but I'd prefer to not be a participant in a huge uncontrolled experiment. Usually when you do experiments on humans you get their consent first. It's usually quite a process to go through. Doing experiments on humans when those experiments can straight lead people to losing their livelihoods, their jobs, their families, their mental health, their lives.... pretty fucking evil. Not sure that would pass any university's review board at all. In saner times, it would probably get investigated by some UN agency for human rights violations but hey... who cares about all that when it's a global pandemic, right? Inalienable human rights are just a formality, right? So yeah, I really don't consent to participating in this experiment. How do I opt out?
- secabeen 5y ago
  > So yeah, I really don't consent to participating in this experiment. How do I opt out? Stay home, don't physically interact with others. If that's not to your liking, move to a state or country with less strict rules and less robust governance.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    > If that's not to your liking, move to a state or country with less strict rules and less robust governance. Why should I move? I don't recall any of these mandates on the ballot, do you? I didn't vote for any of this, did you? Surely over a year and half the public should be able to provide at least some guidance, right? You cannot even erect a cell phone tower on top of a building without a public design review in many places. And even if it did win on some ballot does that mean any of what we are doing is okay at all? Could it just not be tyranny of the majority? Plenty of real dictators had popular support from the public... does that make what they did okay? I mean anybody that tries to express skepticism or criticism about what we are doing usually gets called incredibly foul language, gets bullied, downvoted and in real life a hell of a lot of hostility. People by and large refuse to acknowledge that well intentioned people might not agree with any of what society has chosen to do for covid. There is heaps and heaps of groupthink piling onto our chosen course. It doesn't help when the average person supporting these mandates thinks if they catch covid, their odds of dying are 10%[0]. One of the fundamental reasons I believe most of what is driving covid policy is public hysteria and not grounded disease mitigation is the fact that you absolutely are not allowed to question any of this crap. It's like a religion. Our reaction to covid scares me far more than covid. [0] https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/ https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/
    - secabeen 5y ago
      > Why should I move? I don't recall any of these mandates on the ballot, do you? I didn't vote for any of this, did you? I voted to empower my representatives and their delegates in the public health departments of my state and county to make these decisions, and they are doing so. The history of representative government is full of officials making decisions like this, or even more impactful. Just because it's been decades since we've been afflicted by a pandemic of this sort (the 1918 flu being the most well-known, but there have been others) doesn't mean that those officials don't have the powers that they're exercising, it only means that I (and probably you) were unaware that they had said powers. The laws describing and backing those powers have been on the books for years. Officials having powers like these is a part of the social contract that lets us live in a country with good schools, a healthy citizenry, robust infrastructure, and safe streets. Other officials in the same government have the power to force you to engage in military action in a war. That power is more widely-known than the power of public health officials, but both are powers of our existing governments. If you don't want to be subject to those rules and benefit from those investments and privileges, then moving is the best option for people who are of age and strongly desirous of a different freedom/responsibility mix. > And even if it did win on some ballot does that mean any of what we are doing is okay at all? Perhaps, perhaps not. The remedy is through the democratic process and the courts. Government officials are overseen by elected officials, and if the broader public doesn't like the decisions those officials make, that will show up in how people vote. We can certainly see that in the current pandemic; lots of people in Florida are going to be considering the Governor's decisions during the next election; Governor Newsom was nearly recalled over his policy decisions regarding the pandemic.

spookthesunset 5y ago

> its actually quite great that some states are willing to be guinea pigs and their citizenry are willing to go with different riskier strategies and experiments. I mean technocracy is great an all... but I'd prefer to not be a participant in a huge uncontrolled experiment. Usually when you do experiments on humans you get their consent first. It's usually quite a process to go through. Doing experiments on humans when those experiments can straight lead people to losing their livelihoods, their jobs, their families, their mental health, their lives.... pretty fucking evil. Not sure that would pass any university's review board at all. In saner times, it would probably get investigated by some UN agency for human rights violations but hey... who cares about all that when it's a global pandemic, right? Inalienable human rights are just a formality, right? So yeah, I really don't consent to participating in this experiment. How do I opt out?

secabeen 5y ago
> So yeah, I really don't consent to participating in this experiment. How do I opt out? Stay home, don't physically interact with others. If that's not to your liking, move to a state or country with less strict rules and less robust governance.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  > If that's not to your liking, move to a state or country with less strict rules and less robust governance. Why should I move? I don't recall any of these mandates on the ballot, do you? I didn't vote for any of this, did you? Surely over a year and half the public should be able to provide at least some guidance, right? You cannot even erect a cell phone tower on top of a building without a public design review in many places. And even if it did win on some ballot does that mean any of what we are doing is okay at all? Could it just not be tyranny of the majority? Plenty of real dictators had popular support from the public... does that make what they did okay? I mean anybody that tries to express skepticism or criticism about what we are doing usually gets called incredibly foul language, gets bullied, downvoted and in real life a hell of a lot of hostility. People by and large refuse to acknowledge that well intentioned people might not agree with any of what society has chosen to do for covid. There is heaps and heaps of groupthink piling onto our chosen course. It doesn't help when the average person supporting these mandates thinks if they catch covid, their odds of dying are 10%[0]. One of the fundamental reasons I believe most of what is driving covid policy is public hysteria and not grounded disease mitigation is the fact that you absolutely are not allowed to question any of this crap. It's like a religion. Our reaction to covid scares me far more than covid. [0] https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/ https://covid19pulse.usc.edu/
  - secabeen 5y ago
    > Why should I move? I don't recall any of these mandates on the ballot, do you? I didn't vote for any of this, did you? I voted to empower my representatives and their delegates in the public health departments of my state and county to make these decisions, and they are doing so. The history of representative government is full of officials making decisions like this, or even more impactful. Just because it's been decades since we've been afflicted by a pandemic of this sort (the 1918 flu being the most well-known, but there have been others) doesn't mean that those officials don't have the powers that they're exercising, it only means that I (and probably you) were unaware that they had said powers. The laws describing and backing those powers have been on the books for years. Officials having powers like these is a part of the social contract that lets us live in a country with good schools, a healthy citizenry, robust infrastructure, and safe streets. Other officials in the same government have the power to force you to engage in military action in a war. That power is more widely-known than the power of public health officials, but both are powers of our existing governments. If you don't want to be subject to those rules and benefit from those investments and privileges, then moving is the best option for people who are of age and strongly desirous of a different freedom/responsibility mix. > And even if it did win on some ballot does that mean any of what we are doing is okay at all? Perhaps, perhaps not. The remedy is through the democratic process and the courts. Government officials are overseen by elected officials, and if the broader public doesn't like the decisions those officials make, that will show up in how people vote. We can certainly see that in the current pandemic; lots of people in Florida are going to be considering the Governor's decisions during the next election; Governor Newsom was nearly recalled over his policy decisions regarding the pandemic.