6 ms·

All governments want cashless economies. They make it easier to track money, collect taxes, keep an eyes on the populace, etc. India did it by invalidating all

All governments want cashless economies. They make it easier to track money, collect taxes, keep an eyes on the populace, etc. India did it by invalidating all large-denomination bills. China did it by limiting ATM withdrawals. United States is doing it in the most American way possible. Literal highway robbery!

lotsofpulp 5y ago
People, generally, want to be able to pay electronically too. It is very convenient.
- saurik 5y ago
  That is an unrelated thought: the world can slowly come to hardly ever use cash--or even achieve universal cashless-ness--without the continued existence of cash being actively discouraged by the government.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I agree, although I do not think civil asset forfeiture is specifically used to discourage the use of cash and incentivize people to go electronic, or at least it was not designed with that motive. Civil asset forfeiture is a power trip by the government that neither political party wants to touch, and it does a great job at reducing trust in the US's governing bodies. When I was a kid, I thought that kind of low level brazen corruption only happened in poorer or less developed countries. Now I get to see my countrymen doing it and admitting to it on video, year after year.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Why does nobody want to touch it? That is what is a mystery to me.
      - mywittyname 5y ago
        The police unions in this country are powerful. A lot of seized cash is treated as tax-free "bonuses" paid out to officers. Either directly, or indirectly by financing "team building exercises" at a Build Your Own AK Ranch or some shit. The prosecutors offices get their cut too, so they have an incentive to keep their mouths shut. Everyone else can be bullied into submission.
        zepto 5y ago
        > A lot of seized cash is treated as tax-free "bonuses" paid out to officers. Either directly… Is this documented somewhere?
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Based on this tweet, no: https://twitter.com/JodyBarr/status/1440856532959170566?s=20 https://twitter.com/JodyBarr/status/1440856532959170566?s=20
        zepto 5y ago
        How is that tweet related to whether the money is paid out to officers?
- kragen 5y ago
  My experience is the opposite. I can open up my wallet and take out a $1000 bill* in about three seconds; if change is due, that typically takes about another ten seconds. Paying with a credit card takes about a minute, four to ten times less convenient, except a significant percentage of the time the time "no hay sistema" and it just doesn't work, and sooner or later your credit card number gets sold to the Russian Mafia on a carding forum. I guess for super organized people checking your monthly statement to see if you've been signed up for a porn subscription you don't know about is not a big deal, but if you're super organized can't you just organize yourself to have the cash you need when you need it? Also, do I really want Visa International to know what brand of constipation medicine I take and which anarchist magazines I subscribe to? (None, I swear!) Anything I buy on a credit card is something I can expect to have to explain to the police or the immigration authorities sooner or later, possibly after the next military coup, or maybe just because there was a protest nearby that turned violent and they'd like to know why I was in that neighborhood that day. Also, why do I need acetone? I'm not cooking meth, am I? If you think this stuff will never affect you, well, nobody ever thinks it will affect them, until it does. Most people alive have lived through an invasion, a coup, or an episode of extreme governmental repression, and most people who haven't yet will. Bitcoin is a nice alternative when it's applicable, but transaction costs are a bit high for buying a cigarette or a restaurant meal, and it's a headache when the confirmation time is 45 minutes instead of 10 minutes. Hopefully Lightning will fix this. ______ * Inflation is bad here, yo. $1000 is about US$6, but printing $2000 bills hasn't been approved yet.
  - cvak 5y ago
    Why would paying with a credit card take a minute? It's 3s with contactless, and since covid it doesn't require a pin code.
    - kragen 5y ago
      Beats me. When did credit cards ever require a PIN, though?
      - hackstack 5y ago
- anyxdf 5y ago
  I don't think so. Spending control is much easier when you withdraw a fixed amount at the beginning of the month. Checking bank statements is easier (they are very short). You don't have to worry who will abuse your credit card or bank details.
actually_a_dog 5y ago
If the US government actually wanted to (mostly) eliminate cash, they could just stop printing currency, and wait for what's in circulation to wear out. That would take about 23 years [0]. As it is, though, only about 8% of all USD exists in physical form [1], anyway, making the USD largely a digital currency already. --- [0]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-spa... [1]: https://money.howstuffworks.com/currency.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/currency.htm
- dmitrygr 5y ago
  That would be reported by the news and people would care. Whereas here we get this reaction: "they seized his money and say he is suspected of being a drug dealer, well then i have nothing to worry about - i am not a drug dealer."
  - bserge 5y ago
    Works even better in the EU. 20K in cash on an economy flight? Criminal! No other way. No way you saved up all of that, you poor pos!
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      It's better to have a clear law, even if it's wrong, so you can carry 19K in peace, then be randomly and unpredictably harrassed by authorities.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Eh, people would care for about 5 minutes, just like everything else. Remember when basically every American adult with a credit history had their entire credit files stolen? How many people do you hear talking about that now?
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      That is materially different than having your cash stolen from you by a seemingly random person at the airport. One results in a very small probability of it affecting you in any way, the other is someone stealing from you.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

People, generally, want to be able to pay electronically too. It is very convenient.

saurik 5y ago
That is an unrelated thought: the world can slowly come to hardly ever use cash--or even achieve universal cashless-ness--without the continued existence of cash being actively discouraged by the government.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I agree, although I do not think civil asset forfeiture is specifically used to discourage the use of cash and incentivize people to go electronic, or at least it was not designed with that motive. Civil asset forfeiture is a power trip by the government that neither political party wants to touch, and it does a great job at reducing trust in the US's governing bodies. When I was a kid, I thought that kind of low level brazen corruption only happened in poorer or less developed countries. Now I get to see my countrymen doing it and admitting to it on video, year after year.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Why does nobody want to touch it? That is what is a mystery to me.
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      The police unions in this country are powerful. A lot of seized cash is treated as tax-free "bonuses" paid out to officers. Either directly, or indirectly by financing "team building exercises" at a Build Your Own AK Ranch or some shit. The prosecutors offices get their cut too, so they have an incentive to keep their mouths shut. Everyone else can be bullied into submission.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > A lot of seized cash is treated as tax-free "bonuses" paid out to officers. Either directly… Is this documented somewhere?
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Based on this tweet, no: https://twitter.com/JodyBarr/status/1440856532959170566?s=20 https://twitter.com/JodyBarr/status/1440856532959170566?s=20
        zepto 5y ago
        How is that tweet related to whether the money is paid out to officers?
kragen 5y ago
My experience is the opposite. I can open up my wallet and take out a $1000 bill* in about three seconds; if change is due, that typically takes about another ten seconds. Paying with a credit card takes about a minute, four to ten times less convenient, except a significant percentage of the time the time "no hay sistema" and it just doesn't work, and sooner or later your credit card number gets sold to the Russian Mafia on a carding forum. I guess for super organized people checking your monthly statement to see if you've been signed up for a porn subscription you don't know about is not a big deal, but if you're super organized can't you just organize yourself to have the cash you need when you need it? Also, do I really want Visa International to know what brand of constipation medicine I take and which anarchist magazines I subscribe to? (None, I swear!) Anything I buy on a credit card is something I can expect to have to explain to the police or the immigration authorities sooner or later, possibly after the next military coup, or maybe just because there was a protest nearby that turned violent and they'd like to know why I was in that neighborhood that day. Also, why do I need acetone? I'm not cooking meth, am I? If you think this stuff will never affect you, well, nobody ever thinks it will affect them, until it does. Most people alive have lived through an invasion, a coup, or an episode of extreme governmental repression, and most people who haven't yet will. Bitcoin is a nice alternative when it's applicable, but transaction costs are a bit high for buying a cigarette or a restaurant meal, and it's a headache when the confirmation time is 45 minutes instead of 10 minutes. Hopefully Lightning will fix this. ______ * Inflation is bad here, yo. $1000 is about US$6, but printing $2000 bills hasn't been approved yet.
- cvak 5y ago
  Why would paying with a credit card take a minute? It's 3s with contactless, and since covid it doesn't require a pin code.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Beats me. When did credit cards ever require a PIN, though?
    - hackstack 5y ago
anyxdf 5y ago
I don't think so. Spending control is much easier when you withdraw a fixed amount at the beginning of the month. Checking bank statements is easier (they are very short). You don't have to worry who will abuse your credit card or bank details.

actually_a_dog 5y ago

If the US government actually wanted to (mostly) eliminate cash, they could just stop printing currency, and wait for what's in circulation to wear out. That would take about 23 years [0]. As it is, though, only about 8% of all USD exists in physical form [1], anyway, making the USD largely a digital currency already. --- [0]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-spa... [1]: https://money.howstuffworks.com/currency.htm https://money.howstuffworks.com/currency.htm

dmitrygr 5y ago
That would be reported by the news and people would care. Whereas here we get this reaction: "they seized his money and say he is suspected of being a drug dealer, well then i have nothing to worry about - i am not a drug dealer."
- bserge 5y ago
  Works even better in the EU. 20K in cash on an economy flight? Criminal! No other way. No way you saved up all of that, you poor pos!
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    It's better to have a clear law, even if it's wrong, so you can carry 19K in peace, then be randomly and unpredictably harrassed by authorities.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Eh, people would care for about 5 minutes, just like everything else. Remember when basically every American adult with a credit history had their entire credit files stolen? How many people do you hear talking about that now?
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    That is materially different than having your cash stolen from you by a seemingly random person at the airport. One results in a very small probability of it affecting you in any way, the other is someone stealing from you.