7 ms·

You know how a cool job description is written? Salary and equity first, very short list of mandatory technologies second, nice to have third, and nothing abou

by thrill 5y ago

You know how a cool job description is written? Salary and equity first, very short list of mandatory technologies second, nice to have third, and nothing about how cool the company is. If the first three items attract someone then they're going to google the place and figure that out.

ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
I would hate to work for a company that treats me as commodity labor, bidding for my time but none of my values or interests. That's not to say salary should be secret (dear god, no), but how cool a company is IS an important metric in and of itself.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  Which is great, until every job application reads as the exact same mix of positive adjectives and power words and you learn to skip the first 1-2 paragraphs of every one.
  - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
    Only if you limit yourself to a particular kind of company, I think? I've worked as a dev for decades, but not for proper, actual tech companies... mostly a mixture of small biz and nonprofits. No two orgs were alike, even though my job at each one was very similar.
    - xboxnolifes 5y ago
      I didn't say the jobs were alike, I said the job listings were alike.
      - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
        Not the ones I've applied to. If a company can't even tell you about itself without hyperbole, why bother?
        cutemonster 5y ago
        Because they might pay lots of money and the coworkers can be nice and talented (they didn't write the job ad) among other things
- rualca 5y ago
  > That's not to say salary should be secret (dear god, no), but how cool a company is IS an important metric in and of itself. If only I had $1 for each time I saw a company showing off foosball tables, game consoles in the hallway, picnics, team get-togethers, people laughing and being cheerful.... And in the end it's the same cubic hellhole where people are no better than anonymous cogs in the machine.
  - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
    Did someone order dehumanizing capitalism with a side of inevitable jadedness?
  - motoxpro 5y ago
    If the company describes itself as "cool" because they have pool tables, that's a great thing. It's signal that thats what "cool" is to them. Sounds like a job description that talked about not working in a cubicle hellhole would resonate with you more.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > If the company describes itself as "cool" because they have pool tables, that's a great thing. It's signal that thats what "cool" is to them. No, not really. It just means that HR had a PR budget to sell themselves as cool, and they bought a game as a prop. My point is that this blend of signaling is pure bait-and-switch. The mods operandi is that they sell this false idea that they are all about fun and games but in the end it's just a low-paying cubicle hellhole with crunch time as the baseline.
      - guntars 5y ago
        Well, yes, they think they're saying something which reveals a lot more to you and you know to avoid this company. I also like to ask myself - who would be attracted by such a job posting and would I want to work with them?
  - ngc248 5y ago
    And actually playing foosball/games are frowned upon Fakecool, all a part of the signalling that companies do to attract talent.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  I interpret parent's point in a context where your company has a page where it describes its values, how it sees its impact etc. Companies with strong values usually have them publicly exposed somewhere, for instance for Cookpad: https://www.cookpadteam.com/careers https://www.cookpadteam.com/careers If you already have a page about how cool you are, it doesn't need to be repeated in every posting, and candidates for who it matters the most will have more information than shortened descriptions to avoid walls of texts in the job posting itself.
  - cutemonster 5y ago
    I don't see much interesting or unusual on that Cookpad page. "You face up to reality, knowing that you can change it" -- things like that can be said about almost any job. And the rest of the things on the page too I think. What would the opposite to facing up to reality be? "Here, we don't accept reality. And if something is bad, it has to stay so." They write: "There’s a big difference between saying that you’re making good in the world and actually doing it. " They're a recipe sharing site. (Nevertheless, seems like maybe a nice place to work at)
AdrianB1 5y ago
I never got a job description with the salary information, even when I was cold-called, anywhere in Europe.
- lnxg33k1 5y ago
  Ive lived in the top two tech city in EU (edit: Europe as of now) London and Berlin and there were always ranges in job specs, now I'm in Amsterdam and it's the only city that doesn't seem to like that (along with coding turning on the brain, i would say)
  - AdrianB1 5y ago
    A few days ago I was contacted by a British company for a remote job, no salary disclosed. I heard that in UK it is disclosed, but I cannot confirm.
    - jstx1 5y ago
      It varies a lot in the UK. Some companies share ranges in the job description, most dont. Many don't share a range publicly but you can get it in the first call with the recruiter if you ask. Some just don't give you anything. And the worst are the ones that don't give their ranges but ask for current and/or expected salary.
- avgDev 5y ago
  I build a relationship with a few recruiters in the US, and I specifically told them that I don't want to waste their time and to start off with a compensation package any time they have something interesting. I cannot even comprehend discussing a job without salary range.
pedalpete 5y ago
I think you are a good data point counter to what many people do. I think it shouldn't be about "how cool the company" is, but you should know what is the character of the company. We're not trying to be "cool", we want to hire people who will come here and do their best work, and want to see the impact they can have (we're in health tech). That's not for everybody. People probably went to work for places like Uber because they thought it was "cool" to work there. or facebook or google. How many people get really excited about BNPL tech, where here in Australia, that's big thing. Those people may be more motivated by the $$. There are missionaries and mercenaries, and I disagree that every company needs to only ire missionaries.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  > > Salary and equity first > I disagree that every company needs to only ire missionaries Shouldn't that be "mercenaries"
Gunax 5y ago
I see descriptions of how amazing the company is as being largely fluff. Every company thinks they're cool and amazing. Sort of like how every candidate thinks he/she is a 'great problem solver' and 'team player'. It's a goal that we all acknowledge is something we desire, but so subjective that everyone believes they have it and self-assertions to that effect tell one very little.
cutemonster 5y ago
> nothing about how cool the company is I think there can be a paragraph about the company at the end, optional reading Otherwise I like your job ad

by thrill 5y ago

ye_olde_gamer 5y ago

I would hate to work for a company that treats me as commodity labor, bidding for my time but none of my values or interests. That's not to say salary should be secret (dear god, no), but how cool a company is IS an important metric in and of itself.

xboxnolifes 5y ago
Which is great, until every job application reads as the exact same mix of positive adjectives and power words and you learn to skip the first 1-2 paragraphs of every one.
- ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
  Only if you limit yourself to a particular kind of company, I think? I've worked as a dev for decades, but not for proper, actual tech companies... mostly a mixture of small biz and nonprofits. No two orgs were alike, even though my job at each one was very similar.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    I didn't say the jobs were alike, I said the job listings were alike.
    - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
      Not the ones I've applied to. If a company can't even tell you about itself without hyperbole, why bother?
      - cutemonster 5y ago
        Because they might pay lots of money and the coworkers can be nice and talented (they didn't write the job ad) among other things
rualca 5y ago
> That's not to say salary should be secret (dear god, no), but how cool a company is IS an important metric in and of itself. If only I had $1 for each time I saw a company showing off foosball tables, game consoles in the hallway, picnics, team get-togethers, people laughing and being cheerful.... And in the end it's the same cubic hellhole where people are no better than anonymous cogs in the machine.
- ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
  Did someone order dehumanizing capitalism with a side of inevitable jadedness?
- motoxpro 5y ago
  If the company describes itself as "cool" because they have pool tables, that's a great thing. It's signal that thats what "cool" is to them. Sounds like a job description that talked about not working in a cubicle hellhole would resonate with you more.
  - rualca 5y ago
    > If the company describes itself as "cool" because they have pool tables, that's a great thing. It's signal that thats what "cool" is to them. No, not really. It just means that HR had a PR budget to sell themselves as cool, and they bought a game as a prop. My point is that this blend of signaling is pure bait-and-switch. The mods operandi is that they sell this false idea that they are all about fun and games but in the end it's just a low-paying cubicle hellhole with crunch time as the baseline.
    - guntars 5y ago
      Well, yes, they think they're saying something which reveals a lot more to you and you know to avoid this company. I also like to ask myself - who would be attracted by such a job posting and would I want to work with them?
- ngc248 5y ago
  And actually playing foosball/games are frowned upon Fakecool, all a part of the signalling that companies do to attract talent.
makeitdouble 5y ago
I interpret parent's point in a context where your company has a page where it describes its values, how it sees its impact etc. Companies with strong values usually have them publicly exposed somewhere, for instance for Cookpad: https://www.cookpadteam.com/careers https://www.cookpadteam.com/careers If you already have a page about how cool you are, it doesn't need to be repeated in every posting, and candidates for who it matters the most will have more information than shortened descriptions to avoid walls of texts in the job posting itself.
- cutemonster 5y ago
  I don't see much interesting or unusual on that Cookpad page. "You face up to reality, knowing that you can change it" -- things like that can be said about almost any job. And the rest of the things on the page too I think. What would the opposite to facing up to reality be? "Here, we don't accept reality. And if something is bad, it has to stay so." They write: "There’s a big difference between saying that you’re making good in the world and actually doing it. " They're a recipe sharing site. (Nevertheless, seems like maybe a nice place to work at)

AdrianB1 5y ago

I never got a job description with the salary information, even when I was cold-called, anywhere in Europe.

lnxg33k1 5y ago
Ive lived in the top two tech city in EU (edit: Europe as of now) London and Berlin and there were always ranges in job specs, now I'm in Amsterdam and it's the only city that doesn't seem to like that (along with coding turning on the brain, i would say)
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  A few days ago I was contacted by a British company for a remote job, no salary disclosed. I heard that in UK it is disclosed, but I cannot confirm.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    It varies a lot in the UK. Some companies share ranges in the job description, most dont. Many don't share a range publicly but you can get it in the first call with the recruiter if you ask. Some just don't give you anything. And the worst are the ones that don't give their ranges but ask for current and/or expected salary.
avgDev 5y ago
I build a relationship with a few recruiters in the US, and I specifically told them that I don't want to waste their time and to start off with a compensation package any time they have something interesting. I cannot even comprehend discussing a job without salary range.

pedalpete 5y ago

I think you are a good data point counter to what many people do. I think it shouldn't be about "how cool the company" is, but you should know what is the character of the company. We're not trying to be "cool", we want to hire people who will come here and do their best work, and want to see the impact they can have (we're in health tech). That's not for everybody. People probably went to work for places like Uber because they thought it was "cool" to work there. or facebook or google. How many people get really excited about BNPL tech, where here in Australia, that's big thing. Those people may be more motivated by the $$. There are missionaries and mercenaries, and I disagree that every company needs to only ire missionaries.

cutemonster 5y ago
> > Salary and equity first > I disagree that every company needs to only ire missionaries Shouldn't that be "mercenaries"

Gunax 5y ago

I see descriptions of how amazing the company is as being largely fluff. Every company thinks they're cool and amazing. Sort of like how every candidate thinks he/she is a 'great problem solver' and 'team player'. It's a goal that we all acknowledge is something we desire, but so subjective that everyone believes they have it and self-assertions to that effect tell one very little.

cutemonster 5y ago

> nothing about how cool the company is I think there can be a paragraph about the company at the end, optional reading Otherwise I like your job ad