5 ms·

Those on the right and left are concerned with cancel culture.

by imwillofficial 5y ago

cool_dude85 5y ago
That doesn't mean it's not a political stance.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Presumably the parent was rebutting this claim: > This seems to be pretty obviously courting people with a particular political lean
mbesto 5y ago
1) Cancel culture has always existed, it's just been branded in the last decade as a political wedge. 2) People (especially political pundits and libertarian minded tech people) have been crying for more free market principles to exist. Don't like Facebook is sharing your pictures? Good, stop using the service then. Is that the free market at work or is it cancel culture? 3) Whether an organization deems employees actions political or not doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is what the audience deems political. If an employee gets "canceled" and you refuse to fire the person resulting in an impact to your financials, you better have a good reason to tell your board why you suffered economic loss. I have first hand experience with cancel culture in the workplace. At a former company, we had an employee (one of ~60) who tweeted something critical about Trump during his presidency that was drug out into the spotlight (it got Fox News coverage) by Trump Jr. Our management team received scathing emails from clients and potential clients that said "fire this person or never work in this industry again" (mind you some of these came from billionaires and CxO's of Private Equity funds). When your revenue is on the line you don't have a choice in this matter. So, to the parent's point, pretending to take this stance isn't not be apolitical.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Our management team received scathing emails from clients and potential clients that said "fire this person or never work in this industry again" (mind you some of these came from billionaires and CxO's of Private Equity funds). Has anything like this reached the media, or is the media at similar risk? I'm sure some employment lawyers or journalists out there would love to know more about this kind of backroom pressure, whether right or left.
  - mbesto 5y ago
    > I'm sure some employment lawyers or journalists out there would love to know more about this kind of backroom pressure, whether right or left. Why on earth would I go to the media about <Insert PE Fund with $10B AUM that I don't want to name> when doing so would definitely guarantee me not working in that industry again? Think about that for a second.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      Not you personally, of course. But I would have thought that the risk of the rumors this kind of pressure being used as a weapon by competitors, if nothing else, would have come into play to minimize this type of undue influence.
      - mbesto 5y ago
        One of the reasons people buy products/goods is because of social proof - if that social proof erodes (i.e. one of my biggest clients cancels their revenue to me and tells everyone about it) then I have no control over what those clients' competitors say about me.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Cancel culture has always existed, it's just been branded in the last decade as a political wedge. To be clear "canceling" in the sense of "cancel culture" was coined by the cancelers. It's not a conspiracy "to drive a political wedge", but a description using the movement's own jargon. As far as "it has always existed", I don't think that's true. Certainly campaigns of targeted harassment have always existed (which is to say "canceling" has always existed), but the culture where this kind of behavior is normalized and valued is relatively novel. Like any kind of social ill, if you rewind far enough you can find a time when it was common, but at least in my lifetime it was never normal or valued. The canonical exception which proves the rule was the Dixie Chicks' cancellation as a result of their criticism of the war, and even then to get that kind of a response, the Dixie Chicks had to say something which offended a supermajority of Americans, while "cancel culture" today is typically about offending a small minority (roughly 10%). > When your revenue is on the line you don't have a choice in this matter. So, to the parent's point, pretending to take this stance isn't not be apolitical. Like everything, opposition to cancel culture is political for a sufficiently broad definition of "political". Maybe the more interesting question is whether it's partisan, and I think your anecdote proves that it's not. There are elements of the left and the right for whom "cancel culture" is an apt description. Similarly, there are folks on all sides who oppose cancel culture.
  - mbesto 5y ago
    > As far as "it has always existed", I don't think that's true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott > Like any kind of social ill, if you rewind far enough you can find a time when it was common, but at least in my lifetime it was never normal or valued. Keep in mind social media has drastically amplified the attention we point on cancel culture. Both the "cancelling" itself but as well as people talking about it. Perhaps that has also increased the amount of events happening, but it doesn't mean it hasn't existed (see Boycotting above). > Like everything, opposition to cancel culture is political for a sufficiently broad definition of "political". You have to be able to define what cancel culture is first. As my little story pointed out, there is nothing I can do as a business to recourse clients not buying my product as a result of an employee getting "canceled". > Maybe the more interesting question is whether it's partisan Maybe, but trying to assign a political party to the use of its weaponry you're only further creating a divide and therefore creating partisan. In other words, if you conclude that the left/right they're using cancel culture they'll only dig their heals in more and project that the opposite side is weaponizing it. > Similarly, there are folks on all sides who oppose cancel culture. Ultimately the fact that there isn't a commonly accepted definition regardless of political affiliation is what holds us back from either eliminating it or accepting it as simply free market principles.

Those on the right and left are concerned with cancel culture.

cool_dude85 5y ago

That doesn't mean it's not a political stance.

throwaway894345 5y ago
Presumably the parent was rebutting this claim: > This seems to be pretty obviously courting people with a particular political lean

mbesto 5y ago

1) Cancel culture has always existed, it's just been branded in the last decade as a political wedge. 2) People (especially political pundits and libertarian minded tech people) have been crying for more free market principles to exist. Don't like Facebook is sharing your pictures? Good, stop using the service then. Is that the free market at work or is it cancel culture? 3) Whether an organization deems employees actions political or not doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is what the audience deems political. If an employee gets "canceled" and you refuse to fire the person resulting in an impact to your financials, you better have a good reason to tell your board why you suffered economic loss. I have first hand experience with cancel culture in the workplace. At a former company, we had an employee (one of ~60) who tweeted something critical about Trump during his presidency that was drug out into the spotlight (it got Fox News coverage) by Trump Jr. Our management team received scathing emails from clients and potential clients that said "fire this person or never work in this industry again" (mind you some of these came from billionaires and CxO's of Private Equity funds). When your revenue is on the line you don't have a choice in this matter. So, to the parent's point, pretending to take this stance isn't not be apolitical.

nitrogen 5y ago
Our management team received scathing emails from clients and potential clients that said "fire this person or never work in this industry again" (mind you some of these came from billionaires and CxO's of Private Equity funds). Has anything like this reached the media, or is the media at similar risk? I'm sure some employment lawyers or journalists out there would love to know more about this kind of backroom pressure, whether right or left.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > I'm sure some employment lawyers or journalists out there would love to know more about this kind of backroom pressure, whether right or left. Why on earth would I go to the media about <Insert PE Fund with $10B AUM that I don't want to name> when doing so would definitely guarantee me not working in that industry again? Think about that for a second.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    Not you personally, of course. But I would have thought that the risk of the rumors this kind of pressure being used as a weapon by competitors, if nothing else, would have come into play to minimize this type of undue influence.
    - mbesto 5y ago
      One of the reasons people buy products/goods is because of social proof - if that social proof erodes (i.e. one of my biggest clients cancels their revenue to me and tells everyone about it) then I have no control over what those clients' competitors say about me.
throwaway894345 5y ago
> Cancel culture has always existed, it's just been branded in the last decade as a political wedge. To be clear "canceling" in the sense of "cancel culture" was coined by the cancelers. It's not a conspiracy "to drive a political wedge", but a description using the movement's own jargon. As far as "it has always existed", I don't think that's true. Certainly campaigns of targeted harassment have always existed (which is to say "canceling" has always existed), but the culture where this kind of behavior is normalized and valued is relatively novel. Like any kind of social ill, if you rewind far enough you can find a time when it was common, but at least in my lifetime it was never normal or valued. The canonical exception which proves the rule was the Dixie Chicks' cancellation as a result of their criticism of the war, and even then to get that kind of a response, the Dixie Chicks had to say something which offended a supermajority of Americans, while "cancel culture" today is typically about offending a small minority (roughly 10%). > When your revenue is on the line you don't have a choice in this matter. So, to the parent's point, pretending to take this stance isn't not be apolitical. Like everything, opposition to cancel culture is political for a sufficiently broad definition of "political". Maybe the more interesting question is whether it's partisan, and I think your anecdote proves that it's not. There are elements of the left and the right for whom "cancel culture" is an apt description. Similarly, there are folks on all sides who oppose cancel culture.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > As far as "it has always existed", I don't think that's true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott > Like any kind of social ill, if you rewind far enough you can find a time when it was common, but at least in my lifetime it was never normal or valued. Keep in mind social media has drastically amplified the attention we point on cancel culture. Both the "cancelling" itself but as well as people talking about it. Perhaps that has also increased the amount of events happening, but it doesn't mean it hasn't existed (see Boycotting above). > Like everything, opposition to cancel culture is political for a sufficiently broad definition of "political". You have to be able to define what cancel culture is first. As my little story pointed out, there is nothing I can do as a business to recourse clients not buying my product as a result of an employee getting "canceled". > Maybe the more interesting question is whether it's partisan Maybe, but trying to assign a political party to the use of its weaponry you're only further creating a divide and therefore creating partisan. In other words, if you conclude that the left/right they're using cancel culture they'll only dig their heals in more and project that the opposite side is weaponizing it. > Similarly, there are folks on all sides who oppose cancel culture. Ultimately the fact that there isn't a commonly accepted definition regardless of political affiliation is what holds us back from either eliminating it or accepting it as simply free market principles.