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This (this specific news as well as crypto in general) still feels like externalizing a fairly important cost - the energy usage required to keep this world-wid

This (this specific news as well as crypto in general) still feels like externalizing a fairly important cost - the energy usage required to keep this world-wide distributed ledger going. Change my mind?

JonathanBeuys 5y ago
Bitcoin's energy consumption depends on mining revenue. Currently the main component of mining revenue is block reward. Block reward will go to zero over time. How much energy Bitcoin will use then is not known today. It is a new experiment that mankind is performing for the first time. The old financial system is not very efficient. In the USA alone, millions of people work in the finance sector. Automating those tasks via crypto systems might save a lot of energy. There is a good chance that Bitcoin's energy usage will be completely solar based in the long run.
- CJefferson 5y ago
  The bits of the old financial system which duplicate bitcoin (doing simply electronic transactions) are very efficient. I see no reason all the other stuff wouldn't still be around in a world where bitcoin replaced the dollar. Also, there is no way bitcoin can come close to scaling to even a tiny fraction of the transactions which happen every day.
  - JonathanBeuys 5y ago
    Bitcoin does not only do transactions. It has a smart contract language which allows more and more types of smart contracts all the time. (Yes, Bitcoin is not static as many people think). The old system is not at all efficient for transactions. Vendors hate credit cards for a reason. Visa alone made 20 Billion Dollars in revenue last year for a reason. Bitcoin can scale infinitely via the Lightning Network.
    - mdoms 5y ago
      Visa is "inefficient" because they supply many many more services than simply transacting. Dispute resolution, fraud detection, customer service, card issuing, and on and on. You know, all of this stuff we'll have to build from scratch for Bitcoin to become even remotely viable as a currency. There's no reason to believe that Bitcoin can make these services any more efficient.
      - JonathanBeuys 5y ago
        Dispute resolution: This "service" has pros and cons. It is one reason why vendors hate credit cards. You never know when you can be sure that the payment really was done. Or if it will suddenly disappear again. Fraud detection: One reason why fraud detection is needed is that the whole system of "whoever has the number can pull money" is insane. Customer service: What do you mean? Card issuing: Who wants cards? Those will go away anyhow.
      - easrng 5y ago
        Dispute resolution is trivial with a 2-of-3 multisig. The customer locks up funds until service has been provided and then in the ideal case the customer and merchant agree and pay the merchant. If there's a dispute, the dispute resolver can forcibly send funds with the cooperation of either party.
        CJefferson 5y ago
        The bit of dispute resolution where the money is sent isn't the hard bit -- it's actually doing the resolution. Bitcoin doesn't help with that at all.
    - freemint 5y ago
      > Bitcoin can scale infinitely via the Lightning Network No it can't . It barely scales to the orbit of Pluto (~5.7 light hours from the sun). You can not use it to send Bitcoin from one random point in the Oort cloud to another.
  - ulzeraj 5y ago
    > The bits of the old financial system which duplicate bitcoin (doing simply electronic transactions) are very efficient. Its all very efficient until Mastercard and Visa decide that your line of business should not be allowed to receive money and they blacklist you and your descendants from the financial system forever.
- corobo 5y ago
  When you say over time are we talking next year, decade, century? I don't really follow Bitcoin and friends, all I know is it uses more electric than some countries
  - JonathanBeuys 5y ago
    You can find the schedule by googling "bitcoin halving schedule". The current plan is to halve the block reward every 4 years and completely stop paying a block reward in 2140.
    - corobo 5y ago
      2140 haha. I included century as an exaggerated joke answer to try to poke someone into responding, I didn't realise it was on the money
cheeze 5y ago
Talk about beating a dead horse. Read literally any HN thread ever posted about cryptocurrencies to see this discussed ad nauseum.
dane-pgp 5y ago
There are many ways to re-internalize the costs of CO2-producing energy use, such as putting a carbon tax on energy providers which emit CO2. In contrast, writing specific policies to target (specific uses of) specific cryptocurrencies, without exempting the renewable energy used in their production, and without targeting other "frivolous" uses of energy, would be an inelegant approach.
fksadfji12 5y ago
Because noone cares about that.
exolymph 5y ago
Honestly, the main argument is "I don't care about following your priorities for 'legitimate' energy usage and you can't stop me."
gregwebs 5y ago
This uses the lightning network. The energy cost of a lightning payment is orders of magnitude lower than bitcoin. This kind of usage actually demonstrates bitcoin's valuable use case (a base layer for final settlement) whereas in recent years a lot of energy was being burned effectively just for speculation.
dropnerd 5y ago
price the energy cost correctly then

JonathanBeuys 5y ago

Bitcoin's energy consumption depends on mining revenue. Currently the main component of mining revenue is block reward. Block reward will go to zero over time. How much energy Bitcoin will use then is not known today. It is a new experiment that mankind is performing for the first time. The old financial system is not very efficient. In the USA alone, millions of people work in the finance sector. Automating those tasks via crypto systems might save a lot of energy. There is a good chance that Bitcoin's energy usage will be completely solar based in the long run.

CJefferson 5y ago
The bits of the old financial system which duplicate bitcoin (doing simply electronic transactions) are very efficient. I see no reason all the other stuff wouldn't still be around in a world where bitcoin replaced the dollar. Also, there is no way bitcoin can come close to scaling to even a tiny fraction of the transactions which happen every day.
- JonathanBeuys 5y ago
  Bitcoin does not only do transactions. It has a smart contract language which allows more and more types of smart contracts all the time. (Yes, Bitcoin is not static as many people think). The old system is not at all efficient for transactions. Vendors hate credit cards for a reason. Visa alone made 20 Billion Dollars in revenue last year for a reason. Bitcoin can scale infinitely via the Lightning Network.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Visa is "inefficient" because they supply many many more services than simply transacting. Dispute resolution, fraud detection, customer service, card issuing, and on and on. You know, all of this stuff we'll have to build from scratch for Bitcoin to become even remotely viable as a currency. There's no reason to believe that Bitcoin can make these services any more efficient.
    - JonathanBeuys 5y ago
      Dispute resolution: This "service" has pros and cons. It is one reason why vendors hate credit cards. You never know when you can be sure that the payment really was done. Or if it will suddenly disappear again. Fraud detection: One reason why fraud detection is needed is that the whole system of "whoever has the number can pull money" is insane. Customer service: What do you mean? Card issuing: Who wants cards? Those will go away anyhow.
    - easrng 5y ago
      Dispute resolution is trivial with a 2-of-3 multisig. The customer locks up funds until service has been provided and then in the ideal case the customer and merchant agree and pay the merchant. If there's a dispute, the dispute resolver can forcibly send funds with the cooperation of either party.
      - CJefferson 5y ago
        The bit of dispute resolution where the money is sent isn't the hard bit -- it's actually doing the resolution. Bitcoin doesn't help with that at all.
  - freemint 5y ago
    > Bitcoin can scale infinitely via the Lightning Network No it can't . It barely scales to the orbit of Pluto (~5.7 light hours from the sun). You can not use it to send Bitcoin from one random point in the Oort cloud to another.
- ulzeraj 5y ago
  > The bits of the old financial system which duplicate bitcoin (doing simply electronic transactions) are very efficient. Its all very efficient until Mastercard and Visa decide that your line of business should not be allowed to receive money and they blacklist you and your descendants from the financial system forever.
corobo 5y ago
When you say over time are we talking next year, decade, century? I don't really follow Bitcoin and friends, all I know is it uses more electric than some countries
- JonathanBeuys 5y ago
  You can find the schedule by googling "bitcoin halving schedule". The current plan is to halve the block reward every 4 years and completely stop paying a block reward in 2140.
  - corobo 5y ago
    2140 haha. I included century as an exaggerated joke answer to try to poke someone into responding, I didn't realise it was on the money

cheeze 5y ago

Talk about beating a dead horse. Read literally any HN thread ever posted about cryptocurrencies to see this discussed ad nauseum.

dane-pgp 5y ago

There are many ways to re-internalize the costs of CO2-producing energy use, such as putting a carbon tax on energy providers which emit CO2. In contrast, writing specific policies to target (specific uses of) specific cryptocurrencies, without exempting the renewable energy used in their production, and without targeting other "frivolous" uses of energy, would be an inelegant approach.

fksadfji12 5y ago

Because noone cares about that.

exolymph 5y ago

Honestly, the main argument is "I don't care about following your priorities for 'legitimate' energy usage and you can't stop me."

gregwebs 5y ago

This uses the lightning network. The energy cost of a lightning payment is orders of magnitude lower than bitcoin. This kind of usage actually demonstrates bitcoin's valuable use case (a base layer for final settlement) whereas in recent years a lot of energy was being burned effectively just for speculation.

dropnerd 5y ago

price the energy cost correctly then