4 ms·

I'm sure this includes minimums for miles/kwh for electrics, right?

boplicity 5y ago
That's really a separate issue, which has to do with a combination of enough zero carbon electricity generation, distribution, and storage. Though, I do wonder: Are there egregiously ineffecient electric vehicles currently on the market?
StillBored 5y ago
To lazy to find it, but there are some youtube videos of a car reviewer doing cross country trips in tesla's to review the difficulty. They are generally favirable, while pointing out some of the possible issues (broken chargers!) that might cause problems. A year or so after the first one, he did the exact same road trip along the northern US to compare how well it worked in cold weather to determine how much effect it would have. (answer enough to be inconvenient but he also changed to a more optimal charging method to compensate). All that is to say, in the end he published how much it cost him for this road trip, per mile in charging fees and it ended up being something like 15% cheaper than driving a similar family sedan (30MPG IIRC) and buying gas. Two which, I would like to point out that gas taxes to pay for the roads he was driving on where likely more than 15% in most of the states he drove through. It might have been slightly more carbon friendly, but i'm a little tired of people with electric cars being given quantity discounts (if you will) buying from power generation mixes that are >50% carbon while those of us cooling our inefficient houses and powering our piggy computers are on tiered pricing models that rape us for excess consumption.
- beerandt 5y ago
  >being given quantity discounts It's way more than that. Imagine trying to open a gas station without being required to provide restrooms, handicapped spaces, environmental permitting, and all the other headaches that come with opening any other business location, let alone the requirements that are gas station specific. Especially since time to charge basically guarantees the occupants will be getting out of the car, which isn't the case for 5 min fill-ups at gas stations.
- miloignis 5y ago
  I believe that there's often a yearly fee for electric vehicles meant to counteract that - there is a >$200 one in Georgia, where I live, and I believe that's far over the equivalent one would pay through a gas tax if one had an ICE vehicle. In addition, I believe the vehicles hardest on the road are commercial trucks, not standard sedans. Put together, I believe the electric vehicle owners here end up subsidizing the roads for commercial truck ICEs, which seems very backwards.
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
Electrics like Tesla and others blow far past the most stringent fuel economy minimums. The Model 3 sedan gets close to 140 MPG equivalent! You might expect the heavy, larger Model S to perform more poorly, and you'd be right...it only gets 93 mpg. It's a simple matter of economics; even a big battery pack contains fewer kWh than a gas tank so electric cars essentially must be streamlined. Even the Cybertruck with its huge battery and utilitarian aesthetic is aerodynamic: It looks more like a crossover SUV than a conventional pickup truck, with its streamlined windshield, sail pillars, and automatic tonneau cover. This isn't for aesthetic reasons, it's because these changes are required to reach the desired range numbers. Low-rolling-resistance tires are standard on electrics not because they're cheap for electric vehicle manufacturers, but because they're cheaper than installing larger batteries. Meanwhile, before it even hits the torque converter or transmission, a gasoline engine only turns 25-30% of that chemical energy into useful work. Conversely, an electric motor turns 90-95% of the energy in the battery into useful work. An electric vehicle that couldn't make the 27.5 mpg CAFE minimum would be pathetic and would not be a viable product.
- mike_d 5y ago
  MPG equivalent externalizes fuel production, which when charging your car at night - is primarily done by burning coal. If you burned gasoline to make magic wizard juice and then powered your car off of that, it does not make the car any better for the environment.
  - martythemaniak 5y ago
    This is a lie. My Tesla is nuclear powered. Nuclear provides baseload power which can't be easily spun or or down, so overnight power is almost entirely nuclear and carbon free.
    - mike_d 5y ago
      Are you directly connected to this nuclear plant, or to the grid? Even as a baseline energy source nuclear accounts for a maximum of 19% of generation. 60% comes from burning dinosaurs in various forms.

That's really a separate issue, which has to do with a combination of enough zero carbon electricity generation, distribution, and storage. Though, I do wonder: Are there egregiously ineffecient electric vehicles currently on the market?

StillBored 5y ago

To lazy to find it, but there are some youtube videos of a car reviewer doing cross country trips in tesla's to review the difficulty. They are generally favirable, while pointing out some of the possible issues (broken chargers!) that might cause problems. A year or so after the first one, he did the exact same road trip along the northern US to compare how well it worked in cold weather to determine how much effect it would have. (answer enough to be inconvenient but he also changed to a more optimal charging method to compensate). All that is to say, in the end he published how much it cost him for this road trip, per mile in charging fees and it ended up being something like 15% cheaper than driving a similar family sedan (30MPG IIRC) and buying gas. Two which, I would like to point out that gas taxes to pay for the roads he was driving on where likely more than 15% in most of the states he drove through. It might have been slightly more carbon friendly, but i'm a little tired of people with electric cars being given quantity discounts (if you will) buying from power generation mixes that are >50% carbon while those of us cooling our inefficient houses and powering our piggy computers are on tiered pricing models that rape us for excess consumption.

beerandt 5y ago
>being given quantity discounts It's way more than that. Imagine trying to open a gas station without being required to provide restrooms, handicapped spaces, environmental permitting, and all the other headaches that come with opening any other business location, let alone the requirements that are gas station specific. Especially since time to charge basically guarantees the occupants will be getting out of the car, which isn't the case for 5 min fill-ups at gas stations.
miloignis 5y ago
I believe that there's often a yearly fee for electric vehicles meant to counteract that - there is a >$200 one in Georgia, where I live, and I believe that's far over the equivalent one would pay through a gas tax if one had an ICE vehicle. In addition, I believe the vehicles hardest on the road are commercial trucks, not standard sedans. Put together, I believe the electric vehicle owners here end up subsidizing the roads for commercial truck ICEs, which seems very backwards.

LeifCarrotson 5y ago

Electrics like Tesla and others blow far past the most stringent fuel economy minimums. The Model 3 sedan gets close to 140 MPG equivalent! You might expect the heavy, larger Model S to perform more poorly, and you'd be right...it only gets 93 mpg. It's a simple matter of economics; even a big battery pack contains fewer kWh than a gas tank so electric cars essentially must be streamlined. Even the Cybertruck with its huge battery and utilitarian aesthetic is aerodynamic: It looks more like a crossover SUV than a conventional pickup truck, with its streamlined windshield, sail pillars, and automatic tonneau cover. This isn't for aesthetic reasons, it's because these changes are required to reach the desired range numbers. Low-rolling-resistance tires are standard on electrics not because they're cheap for electric vehicle manufacturers, but because they're cheaper than installing larger batteries. Meanwhile, before it even hits the torque converter or transmission, a gasoline engine only turns 25-30% of that chemical energy into useful work. Conversely, an electric motor turns 90-95% of the energy in the battery into useful work. An electric vehicle that couldn't make the 27.5 mpg CAFE minimum would be pathetic and would not be a viable product.

mike_d 5y ago
MPG equivalent externalizes fuel production, which when charging your car at night - is primarily done by burning coal. If you burned gasoline to make magic wizard juice and then powered your car off of that, it does not make the car any better for the environment.
- martythemaniak 5y ago
  This is a lie. My Tesla is nuclear powered. Nuclear provides baseload power which can't be easily spun or or down, so overnight power is almost entirely nuclear and carbon free.
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Are you directly connected to this nuclear plant, or to the grid? Even as a baseline energy source nuclear accounts for a maximum of 19% of generation. 60% comes from burning dinosaurs in various forms.