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Very unlikely that they keep the record indefinitely after you delete the email. Instead, it's likely that the systems that store the derived information are no

Very unlikely that they keep the record indefinitely after you delete the email. Instead, it's likely that the systems that store the derived information are not transactionally connected to the email database. Deletions would be reflected eventually, but only according to the periodicity with which the two systems are synchronized.

junon 5y ago
And what makes you think this is the case? Or is it speculation?
- saalweachter 5y ago
  https://policies.google.com/technologies/retention?hl=en-US https://policies.google.com/technologies/retention?hl=en-US > When you delete data in your Google account, we immediately start the process of removing it from the product and our systems. First, we aim to immediately remove it from view and the data may no longer be used to personalize your Google experience. For example, if you delete a video you watched from your My Activity dashboard, YouTube will immediately stop showing your watch progress for that video. > We then begin a process designed to safely and completely delete the data from our storage systems. Safe deletion is important to protect our users and customers from accidental data loss. Complete deletion of data from our servers is equally important for users’ peace of mind. This process generally takes around 2 months from the time of deletion. This often includes up to a month-long recovery period in case the data was removed unintentionally. > Each Google storage system from which data gets deleted has its own detailed process for safe and complete deletion. This might involve repeated passes through the system to confirm all data has been deleted, or brief delays to allow for recovery from mistakes. As a result, deletion could sometimes take longer when extra time is needed to safely and completely delete the data. > Our services also use encrypted backup storage as another layer of protection to help recover from potential disasters. Data can remain on these systems for up to 6 months.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    This does not say what you are implying above - this talks about a formal data deletion request, not just deleting the email.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      I don't believe you are correct about this. The document is very clearly (to me) talking about ordinary deletion actions, not just formal deletion requests.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    From the same page: > some data we retain for longer periods of time when necessary. > We keep some data for the life of your Google Account if it’s useful for helping us understand how users interact with our features and how we can improve our services. For example, after you delete a specific Google search from My Activity, we might keep information about how often you search for things, but not what you searched for. When you delete your Google Account, the information about how often you search for things is also removed. Incredibly vague, there is no reason email purchases couldn't be included in this category. > Sometimes business and legal requirements oblige us to retain certain information, for specific purposes, for an extended period of time. Again, "business requirements" can mean anything at all.
kindle-dev 5y ago
Why is it "very unlikely?" Does Google have a good track record of removing information voluntarily?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Their terms of service and policies document this to be their process. Also, such handling would be required for GDPR compliance.
- treeman79 5y ago
  He’s talking about how the system architecture would be sanely designed. He is correct on how it should work. Now how long the secondary system holds the data is a business decision. Maybe a month/year, maybe forever. Record retention laws may have impact on this. Now If Google decided to hold the records forever or far beyond any legal requirements then yeah that’s getting evil.
- nostrademons 5y ago
  It's a GDPR/CCPA requirement.
  - lmkg 5y ago
    Google has a poor record on GDPR requirements. And in fact, common themes among the issues that they have are undisclosed secondary uses and unreasonable data retention.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Is that true? From what I can find the total amount of their fines is not more than $100M, which is less than I would expect given their size if they were conducting willful ongoing violations. And neither of the two biggest cases involved willful data retention like this: one was about cookie consent and one was about right to be forgotten.
      - lmkg 5y ago
sorokod 5y ago
What would be the business case for this elaborate system?
- thrashh 5y ago
  Having it transactionally linked would be more elaborate imo. Here they’re just detecting an order and storing it. They might be using this order to show what you’ve ordered recently on results or use it as suggestions on Google Shopping.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > use it as suggestions on Google Shopping. "Consumer Gmail content will not be used or scanned for any ads personalization after this change" No longer in effect? https://qz.com/1014816/google-will-no-longer-mine-your-emails-for-advertising-data/ https://qz.com/1014816/google-will-no-longer-mine-your-email...
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      I don't see any evidence that the purchase history discussed in the article is used for ads personalization.
eevilspock 5y ago
Is this a guess, wishful/hopeful thinking, or do you have receipts?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Another comment helpfully quoted Google's data retention policy. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28631833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28631833
tillinghast 5y ago
What would motivate Google to delete this data? The transaction shown in the screenshot is from 8 years ago.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  When was the corresponding email deleted? That's when the clock starts.
milesvp 5y ago
I would strongly disagree. This type of information is the most valuable information google can collect on an individual. The cost of maintaining this data is so small compared to its value that there is should be little pressure to do anything but store it indefinitely along with any metadata that might be relevant.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Ok, but your conjecture is in contradiction to Google's data retention policies, which describe a process something like what I wrote. It's possible that Google are just lying through their teeth, but I think it's not very likely. I think you have overestimated the value of this sort of information. It is not worth the reputational risk to retain it in contravention of posted policies.
  - prepend 5y ago
    > overestimated the value of this sort of information. What do you estimate is the value of a dossier of all purchases I make over my lifetime? Or at least the ones Google knows about. It seems to me that this is very useful and valuable.
  - dave5104 5y ago
    > I think you have overestimated the value of this sort of information. Google's an advertising company. How is having a complete list of all the products I've purchased online not valuable? Seems like a great indication on what kinds of products Google can turn around and advertise back to me.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    No, Google's policies say they delete some things when you ask them to, but they won't say which things. Maybe email purchases are in this category, or maybe they're in the category of data they keep "for the life of your Google Account", or "for extended time periods".
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jjulius 5y ago
>Very unlikely that they keep the record indefinitely after you delete the email. Doesn't matter - I wouldn't want them storing purchase data for things I bought from other companies at all.
gumby 5y ago
Well, read their data retention policy closely. They may discard the raw data after some time but the learning model they trained with it (a model all about you) they keep and continue to use.

junon 5y ago

And what makes you think this is the case? Or is it speculation?

saalweachter 5y ago
https://policies.google.com/technologies/retention?hl=en-US https://policies.google.com/technologies/retention?hl=en-US > When you delete data in your Google account, we immediately start the process of removing it from the product and our systems. First, we aim to immediately remove it from view and the data may no longer be used to personalize your Google experience. For example, if you delete a video you watched from your My Activity dashboard, YouTube will immediately stop showing your watch progress for that video. > We then begin a process designed to safely and completely delete the data from our storage systems. Safe deletion is important to protect our users and customers from accidental data loss. Complete deletion of data from our servers is equally important for users’ peace of mind. This process generally takes around 2 months from the time of deletion. This often includes up to a month-long recovery period in case the data was removed unintentionally. > Each Google storage system from which data gets deleted has its own detailed process for safe and complete deletion. This might involve repeated passes through the system to confirm all data has been deleted, or brief delays to allow for recovery from mistakes. As a result, deletion could sometimes take longer when extra time is needed to safely and completely delete the data. > Our services also use encrypted backup storage as another layer of protection to help recover from potential disasters. Data can remain on these systems for up to 6 months.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  This does not say what you are implying above - this talks about a formal data deletion request, not just deleting the email.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    I don't believe you are correct about this. The document is very clearly (to me) talking about ordinary deletion actions, not just formal deletion requests.
- burkaman 5y ago
  From the same page: > some data we retain for longer periods of time when necessary. > We keep some data for the life of your Google Account if it’s useful for helping us understand how users interact with our features and how we can improve our services. For example, after you delete a specific Google search from My Activity, we might keep information about how often you search for things, but not what you searched for. When you delete your Google Account, the information about how often you search for things is also removed. Incredibly vague, there is no reason email purchases couldn't be included in this category. > Sometimes business and legal requirements oblige us to retain certain information, for specific purposes, for an extended period of time. Again, "business requirements" can mean anything at all.

kindle-dev 5y ago

Why is it "very unlikely?" Does Google have a good track record of removing information voluntarily?

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Their terms of service and policies document this to be their process. Also, such handling would be required for GDPR compliance.
treeman79 5y ago
He’s talking about how the system architecture would be sanely designed. He is correct on how it should work. Now how long the secondary system holds the data is a business decision. Maybe a month/year, maybe forever. Record retention laws may have impact on this. Now If Google decided to hold the records forever or far beyond any legal requirements then yeah that’s getting evil.
nostrademons 5y ago
It's a GDPR/CCPA requirement.
- lmkg 5y ago
  Google has a poor record on GDPR requirements. And in fact, common themes among the issues that they have are undisclosed secondary uses and unreasonable data retention.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Is that true? From what I can find the total amount of their fines is not more than $100M, which is less than I would expect given their size if they were conducting willful ongoing violations. And neither of the two biggest cases involved willful data retention like this: one was about cookie consent and one was about right to be forgotten.
    - lmkg 5y ago

sorokod 5y ago

What would be the business case for this elaborate system?

thrashh 5y ago
Having it transactionally linked would be more elaborate imo. Here they’re just detecting an order and storing it. They might be using this order to show what you’ve ordered recently on results or use it as suggestions on Google Shopping.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > use it as suggestions on Google Shopping. "Consumer Gmail content will not be used or scanned for any ads personalization after this change" No longer in effect? https://qz.com/1014816/google-will-no-longer-mine-your-emails-for-advertising-data/ https://qz.com/1014816/google-will-no-longer-mine-your-email...
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    I don't see any evidence that the purchase history discussed in the article is used for ads personalization.

eevilspock 5y ago

Is this a guess, wishful/hopeful thinking, or do you have receipts?

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Another comment helpfully quoted Google's data retention policy. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28631833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28631833

tillinghast 5y ago

What would motivate Google to delete this data? The transaction shown in the screenshot is from 8 years ago.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
When was the corresponding email deleted? That's when the clock starts.

milesvp 5y ago

I would strongly disagree. This type of information is the most valuable information google can collect on an individual. The cost of maintaining this data is so small compared to its value that there is should be little pressure to do anything but store it indefinitely along with any metadata that might be relevant.

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Ok, but your conjecture is in contradiction to Google's data retention policies, which describe a process something like what I wrote. It's possible that Google are just lying through their teeth, but I think it's not very likely. I think you have overestimated the value of this sort of information. It is not worth the reputational risk to retain it in contravention of posted policies.
- prepend 5y ago
  > overestimated the value of this sort of information. What do you estimate is the value of a dossier of all purchases I make over my lifetime? Or at least the ones Google knows about. It seems to me that this is very useful and valuable.
- dave5104 5y ago
  > I think you have overestimated the value of this sort of information. Google's an advertising company. How is having a complete list of all the products I've purchased online not valuable? Seems like a great indication on what kinds of products Google can turn around and advertise back to me.
- burkaman 5y ago
  No, Google's policies say they delete some things when you ask them to, but they won't say which things. Maybe email purchases are in this category, or maybe they're in the category of data they keep "for the life of your Google Account", or "for extended time periods".
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jjulius 5y ago

>Very unlikely that they keep the record indefinitely after you delete the email. Doesn't matter - I wouldn't want them storing purchase data for things I bought from other companies at all.

gumby 5y ago

Well, read their data retention policy closely. They may discard the raw data after some time but the learning model they trained with it (a model all about you) they keep and continue to use.