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I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a negative light by Chinese people. Why would the care about opinions of the people/stat

I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a negative light by Chinese people. Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? EDIT: positive → negative

toss1 5y ago
>>I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a positive light by Chinese people. (not sure if you reversed the meaning here, assuming you intended to say that these things are seen in a positive light by the ppl) Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. >>Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? This is a completely bogus and strawman argument. I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. Even if it is out of self-interest, e.g., avoiding the disastrous knock-on effects of China failing, no one wants China to fail. What people DO want is for the CCP to stop behaving as a herd of authoritarian despots at home and abroad. Wanting authoritarian despotism to stop is NOT the same thing as wanting failure. What is sad is the the CCP is so detached from reality that they cannot see that they could be very successful by stopping these behaviors. It is like they can't stop making the same mistakes as the 1958 Smash Sparrows/Four Pests campaign, thinking that they are improving things, but actually creating a disaster (famine in this case). Let's hope these disasters don't also kill 20 million people.
- bserge 5y ago
  Honestly, those are some big demands you've got. Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Many people wanted the US to stop overthrowing governments and stop running disastrous wars around the world. Guess what happened? You and I are no more important than some random Iranian, Ukrainian or Chinese citizen.
  - toss1 5y ago
    >>those are some big demands you've got. They aren't demands, but suggestions if the CCP wants to be viewed positively. But yes, for an expansionist authoritarian regime, stopping being so expansionist and dialing back the authoritarianism might be seen as big demands >>Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Personally, none but the ability to speak out. At the business and government level, plenty. Especially about the Russia regime, they are a classic authoritarian state, who pushes until they get pushback. The problem is that western countries always want "good relations" so they let a lot of things slide in the interest of "good relations", so the authoritarian goes further. Pretty soon, the authoritarian is using chemical weapons to murder people on your soil in broad daylight, or putting armies on the soil of neighboring countries to annex them and shooting down commercial airliners, while you are basically waving a finger back at them. Pushback hard and early, and it seems excessive and "bad relations" politically, but if it goes on for too long, and the choice becomes capitulation to the authoritarians or a big war. So yes, individually, we are unimportant, but we must do what we can to promote self-determination and hope we can convince our governments to follow through.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. Tiananmen is pretty well known. Hop on any Cab in big city, and ask the driver, and they'll acknowledge overtly or covertly that they know it. And some might even boast stories they know about that. Great Firewall is also well known. GFW as a name is an invention of the netizens. As the thing was never publically shared. constant censorship... Dont get me start on this! Deleting posts on Chinese online spaces are a Norm. Not only everyone knows that, they joke it daily or even every hour... The culture of "heihua 黑话" (speaking something in a different form that correlates through background cultural/semantic linkages like sleepy joe is nicknamed the sleeping emperor 睡王） is not only popular on public forums, they are regularly practiced in private chat. Chinese citizens, on a relative scale, are much better informed about their society and the world, than US citizens. I haven't lived in EU, so cannot comment on that.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  As a Chinese myself, with many connections to actual Chinese living in and outside of China, I can assure you, the Chinese people aren't "kept in the dark" on such things. Many are quite well-informed about what's going on. Yes there is censorship, but that works quite differently from how many on Hacker News imagine it. > I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. You can't believe how many times I've encountered a phrase similar to this one. But 9 out of 10 times, upon closer examination, they're just empty words at best, blatant lies at worst. If you're shocked by what I said above (i.e. you're thinking "wtf is he blabbering about?"), allow me to explain. Chinese have different primary values. The things they value most are unity and collectivism. "Freedom" as the ultimate virtue is a western ideology. The Chinese have the concept of "too much freedom", i.e. a lack of social responsibility. "$WESTERN_COUNTRY is too free" is a literal phrase that I've heard from Chinese students in Europe several times. I've witnessed with my own eyes early 2020 how people in China largely voluntarily (without coercion) followed government advice on social distancing and wearing masks. Chinese now watch with amazement how people in the west refuse to social distance and refuse to wear masks under the guise of "freedom". You should read this essay by a Chinese national: "How [Chinese] liberals lost of a generation of young Chinese" — https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/erCJHZVLEtnZ4wWbkgij3g https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/erCJHZVLEtnZ4wWbkgij3g Google Translate does a decent enough job (note: phrases like "year 18" mean 2018) This essay says that for a long time time, the CCP was unpopular in China. So much that CCP members don't care mentioning their membership because that might raise eyebrows. There has always been propaganda and censorship, but censorship can merely silence, not change, what people feel in their hearts. The mainstream opinion was that western liberal democracy is better. However there's been a remarkable change the past 10 years or so. Party popularity has been soaring, and people are now increasingly confident that China's own system is better. Why? Because people found out the government actually does a pretty good job. Many people visited foreign countries and found out that western democracies aren't as good as they thought. They've witnessed the anti-corruption campaigns that have been going on since the early 2010s, are bearing fruit. Life in many Chinese cities is becoming increasingly better. A major change occurred in 2020. People thought China would collapse because of COVID, and they thought western democracies would be able to control the virus, because of freedom of information. That's the narrative that Chinese liberals sold. But then they witnessed the opposite: western countries failed to control the virus and the Chinese government did a great job. This completely discredited Chinese liberals. Now, Chinese are more proud of their own government than ever. This increase in satisfaction isn't merely opinion. A 15-year study by Harvard has shown this trend of increasing satisfaction as well. In the last year of the study, 2016, Harvard measure 92% satisfaction rate with the central government. Another study in 2020 by York University measured 98%, and the study concluded that this major bump was caused by China's good handling of COVID. Kishore Mahbubani is an ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN Security Council head. He says the following about China: the past 30 years are literally the best out of 3000 years. Chinese have got more freedom and more prosperity than they have ever had in their history. Why wouldn't they be happy about this? Back to your "I support the Chinese people [and only hate their government]". The Chinese people support their government. So where does that leave you? Most people that I tell this story to, will immediately label me a "propagandist", "CCP shill", etc. I hope you're not one of them, because those people are the very embodiment of how they're blatantly lying about "supporting the Chinese people": they only support Chinese people until Chinese people disagree with them.

toss1 5y ago

>>I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a positive light by Chinese people. (not sure if you reversed the meaning here, assuming you intended to say that these things are seen in a positive light by the ppl) Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. >>Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? This is a completely bogus and strawman argument. I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. Even if it is out of self-interest, e.g., avoiding the disastrous knock-on effects of China failing, no one wants China to fail. What people DO want is for the CCP to stop behaving as a herd of authoritarian despots at home and abroad. Wanting authoritarian despotism to stop is NOT the same thing as wanting failure. What is sad is the the CCP is so detached from reality that they cannot see that they could be very successful by stopping these behaviors. It is like they can't stop making the same mistakes as the 1958 Smash Sparrows/Four Pests campaign, thinking that they are improving things, but actually creating a disaster (famine in this case). Let's hope these disasters don't also kill 20 million people.

bserge 5y ago
Honestly, those are some big demands you've got. Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Many people wanted the US to stop overthrowing governments and stop running disastrous wars around the world. Guess what happened? You and I are no more important than some random Iranian, Ukrainian or Chinese citizen.
- toss1 5y ago
  >>those are some big demands you've got. They aren't demands, but suggestions if the CCP wants to be viewed positively. But yes, for an expansionist authoritarian regime, stopping being so expansionist and dialing back the authoritarianism might be seen as big demands >>Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Personally, none but the ability to speak out. At the business and government level, plenty. Especially about the Russia regime, they are a classic authoritarian state, who pushes until they get pushback. The problem is that western countries always want "good relations" so they let a lot of things slide in the interest of "good relations", so the authoritarian goes further. Pretty soon, the authoritarian is using chemical weapons to murder people on your soil in broad daylight, or putting armies on the soil of neighboring countries to annex them and shooting down commercial airliners, while you are basically waving a finger back at them. Pushback hard and early, and it seems excessive and "bad relations" politically, but if it goes on for too long, and the choice becomes capitulation to the authoritarians or a big war. So yes, individually, we are unimportant, but we must do what we can to promote self-determination and hope we can convince our governments to follow through.
justicezyx 5y ago
> Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. Tiananmen is pretty well known. Hop on any Cab in big city, and ask the driver, and they'll acknowledge overtly or covertly that they know it. And some might even boast stories they know about that. Great Firewall is also well known. GFW as a name is an invention of the netizens. As the thing was never publically shared. constant censorship... Dont get me start on this! Deleting posts on Chinese online spaces are a Norm. Not only everyone knows that, they joke it daily or even every hour... The culture of "heihua 黑话" (speaking something in a different form that correlates through background cultural/semantic linkages like sleepy joe is nicknamed the sleeping emperor 睡王） is not only popular on public forums, they are regularly practiced in private chat. Chinese citizens, on a relative scale, are much better informed about their society and the world, than US citizens. I haven't lived in EU, so cannot comment on that.
FooBarWidget 5y ago
As a Chinese myself, with many connections to actual Chinese living in and outside of China, I can assure you, the Chinese people aren't "kept in the dark" on such things. Many are quite well-informed about what's going on. Yes there is censorship, but that works quite differently from how many on Hacker News imagine it. > I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. You can't believe how many times I've encountered a phrase similar to this one. But 9 out of 10 times, upon closer examination, they're just empty words at best, blatant lies at worst. If you're shocked by what I said above (i.e. you're thinking "wtf is he blabbering about?"), allow me to explain. Chinese have different primary values. The things they value most are unity and collectivism. "Freedom" as the ultimate virtue is a western ideology. The Chinese have the concept of "too much freedom", i.e. a lack of social responsibility. "$WESTERN_COUNTRY is too free" is a literal phrase that I've heard from Chinese students in Europe several times. I've witnessed with my own eyes early 2020 how people in China largely voluntarily (without coercion) followed government advice on social distancing and wearing masks. Chinese now watch with amazement how people in the west refuse to social distance and refuse to wear masks under the guise of "freedom". You should read this essay by a Chinese national: "How [Chinese] liberals lost of a generation of young Chinese" — https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/erCJHZVLEtnZ4wWbkgij3g https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/erCJHZVLEtnZ4wWbkgij3g Google Translate does a decent enough job (note: phrases like "year 18" mean 2018) This essay says that for a long time time, the CCP was unpopular in China. So much that CCP members don't care mentioning their membership because that might raise eyebrows. There has always been propaganda and censorship, but censorship can merely silence, not change, what people feel in their hearts. The mainstream opinion was that western liberal democracy is better. However there's been a remarkable change the past 10 years or so. Party popularity has been soaring, and people are now increasingly confident that China's own system is better. Why? Because people found out the government actually does a pretty good job. Many people visited foreign countries and found out that western democracies aren't as good as they thought. They've witnessed the anti-corruption campaigns that have been going on since the early 2010s, are bearing fruit. Life in many Chinese cities is becoming increasingly better. A major change occurred in 2020. People thought China would collapse because of COVID, and they thought western democracies would be able to control the virus, because of freedom of information. That's the narrative that Chinese liberals sold. But then they witnessed the opposite: western countries failed to control the virus and the Chinese government did a great job. This completely discredited Chinese liberals. Now, Chinese are more proud of their own government than ever. This increase in satisfaction isn't merely opinion. A 15-year study by Harvard has shown this trend of increasing satisfaction as well. In the last year of the study, 2016, Harvard measure 92% satisfaction rate with the central government. Another study in 2020 by York University measured 98%, and the study concluded that this major bump was caused by China's good handling of COVID. Kishore Mahbubani is an ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN Security Council head. He says the following about China: the past 30 years are literally the best out of 3000 years. Chinese have got more freedom and more prosperity than they have ever had in their history. Why wouldn't they be happy about this? Back to your "I support the Chinese people [and only hate their government]". The Chinese people support their government. So where does that leave you? Most people that I tell this story to, will immediately label me a "propagandist", "CCP shill", etc. I hope you're not one of them, because those people are the very embodiment of how they're blatantly lying about "supporting the Chinese people": they only support Chinese people until Chinese people disagree with them.