7 ms·

If they don't want to be seen in a negative light, they can start by freeing Tibet, the Uighurs, and Hong Kong, or at least take the jackboot a little bit off o

by toss1 5y ago

If they don't want to be seen in a negative light, they can start by freeing Tibet, the Uighurs, and Hong Kong, or at least take the jackboot a little bit off of their necks. Also stopping the expansionism in the South China Sea and ridiculous claims to own Taiwan.... IOW, if they can't conceive of it, they are pretty far removed from reality

tut-urut-utut 5y ago
I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a negative light by Chinese people. Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? EDIT: positive → negative
- toss1 5y ago
  >>I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a positive light by Chinese people. (not sure if you reversed the meaning here, assuming you intended to say that these things are seen in a positive light by the ppl) Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. >>Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? This is a completely bogus and strawman argument. I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. Even if it is out of self-interest, e.g., avoiding the disastrous knock-on effects of China failing, no one wants China to fail. What people DO want is for the CCP to stop behaving as a herd of authoritarian despots at home and abroad. Wanting authoritarian despotism to stop is NOT the same thing as wanting failure. What is sad is the the CCP is so detached from reality that they cannot see that they could be very successful by stopping these behaviors. It is like they can't stop making the same mistakes as the 1958 Smash Sparrows/Four Pests campaign, thinking that they are improving things, but actually creating a disaster (famine in this case). Let's hope these disasters don't also kill 20 million people.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Honestly, those are some big demands you've got. Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Many people wanted the US to stop overthrowing governments and stop running disastrous wars around the world. Guess what happened? You and I are no more important than some random Iranian, Ukrainian or Chinese citizen.
    - toss1 5y ago
      >>those are some big demands you've got. They aren't demands, but suggestions if the CCP wants to be viewed positively. But yes, for an expansionist authoritarian regime, stopping being so expansionist and dialing back the authoritarianism might be seen as big demands >>Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Personally, none but the ability to speak out. At the business and government level, plenty. Especially about the Russia regime, they are a classic authoritarian state, who pushes until they get pushback. The problem is that western countries always want "good relations" so they let a lot of things slide in the interest of "good relations", so the authoritarian goes further. Pretty soon, the authoritarian is using chemical weapons to murder people on your soil in broad daylight, or putting armies on the soil of neighboring countries to annex them and shooting down commercial airliners, while you are basically waving a finger back at them. Pushback hard and early, and it seems excessive and "bad relations" politically, but if it goes on for too long, and the choice becomes capitulation to the authoritarians or a big war. So yes, individually, we are unimportant, but we must do what we can to promote self-determination and hope we can convince our governments to follow through.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. Tiananmen is pretty well known. Hop on any Cab in big city, and ask the driver, and they'll acknowledge overtly or covertly that they know it. And some might even boast stories they know about that. Great Firewall is also well known. GFW as a name is an invention of the netizens. As the thing was never publically shared. constant censorship... Dont get me start on this! Deleting posts on Chinese online spaces are a Norm. Not only everyone knows that, they joke it daily or even every hour... The culture of "heihua 黑话" (speaking something in a different form that correlates through background cultural/semantic linkages like sleepy joe is nicknamed the sleeping emperor 睡王） is not only popular on public forums, they are regularly practiced in private chat. Chinese citizens, on a relative scale, are much better informed about their society and the world, than US citizens. I haven't lived in EU, so cannot comment on that.

by toss1 5y ago

tut-urut-utut 5y ago

I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a negative light by Chinese people. Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? EDIT: positive → negative

toss1 5y ago
>>I fail to imagine how any of the things you mentioned could be seen in a positive light by Chinese people. (not sure if you reversed the meaning here, assuming you intended to say that these things are seen in a positive light by the ppl) Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. >>Why would the care about opinions of the people/states that already hate China and want it to fail? This is a completely bogus and strawman argument. I, and everyone I know wants the Chinese, and all people, to succeed, and enjoy prosperous self-determination. Even if it is out of self-interest, e.g., avoiding the disastrous knock-on effects of China failing, no one wants China to fail. What people DO want is for the CCP to stop behaving as a herd of authoritarian despots at home and abroad. Wanting authoritarian despotism to stop is NOT the same thing as wanting failure. What is sad is the the CCP is so detached from reality that they cannot see that they could be very successful by stopping these behaviors. It is like they can't stop making the same mistakes as the 1958 Smash Sparrows/Four Pests campaign, thinking that they are improving things, but actually creating a disaster (famine in this case). Let's hope these disasters don't also kill 20 million people.
- bserge 5y ago
  Honestly, those are some big demands you've got. Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Many people wanted the US to stop overthrowing governments and stop running disastrous wars around the world. Guess what happened? You and I are no more important than some random Iranian, Ukrainian or Chinese citizen.
  - toss1 5y ago
    >>those are some big demands you've got. They aren't demands, but suggestions if the CCP wants to be viewed positively. But yes, for an expansionist authoritarian regime, stopping being so expansionist and dialing back the authoritarianism might be seen as big demands >>Do you have any leverage? Many people wanted Russia to stop pestering their neighbors and the world. Personally, none but the ability to speak out. At the business and government level, plenty. Especially about the Russia regime, they are a classic authoritarian state, who pushes until they get pushback. The problem is that western countries always want "good relations" so they let a lot of things slide in the interest of "good relations", so the authoritarian goes further. Pretty soon, the authoritarian is using chemical weapons to murder people on your soil in broad daylight, or putting armies on the soil of neighboring countries to annex them and shooting down commercial airliners, while you are basically waving a finger back at them. Pushback hard and early, and it seems excessive and "bad relations" politically, but if it goes on for too long, and the choice becomes capitulation to the authoritarians or a big war. So yes, individually, we are unimportant, but we must do what we can to promote self-determination and hope we can convince our governments to follow through.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > Since the Chinese people are kept in the dark on such things, and not trusted with knowledge of even recent history (e.g., Tienanmen massacre, Great Firewall, constant censorship), they cannot be said to have any view at all of the reality. That is different from having an actual positive view. Tiananmen is pretty well known. Hop on any Cab in big city, and ask the driver, and they'll acknowledge overtly or covertly that they know it. And some might even boast stories they know about that. Great Firewall is also well known. GFW as a name is an invention of the netizens. As the thing was never publically shared. constant censorship... Dont get me start on this! Deleting posts on Chinese online spaces are a Norm. Not only everyone knows that, they joke it daily or even every hour... The culture of "heihua 黑话" (speaking something in a different form that correlates through background cultural/semantic linkages like sleepy joe is nicknamed the sleeping emperor 睡王） is not only popular on public forums, they are regularly practiced in private chat. Chinese citizens, on a relative scale, are much better informed about their society and the world, than US citizens. I haven't lived in EU, so cannot comment on that.