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Still, what's the point in telling someone "to vote with their wallet" instead of complaining? Why not both? Where, if not on HN, should we voice our opinion th

Still, what's the point in telling someone "to vote with their wallet" instead of complaining? Why not both? Where, if not on HN, should we voice our opinion that tech is going down some path we aren't excited about? Avoiding Google/FB/Amazon/Microsoft or whatever your megacorp of choice is is becoming increasingly hard, and it absolutely deserves being talked about. As do any other things in which our choices and freedoms continue to be snuffed out, and that point should be able to stand alone, without being weighed against things like "Vote with your wallet" or "But in Y thing we have more freedoms now! Why does X matter?" These conversations are also worth having, but they shouldn't entirely replace the a call for alternative paths.

shkkmo 5y ago
> but I don't think there's a way out any more. The poster wasn't just complaining about "most phones" but claiming there was no solution. It seems perfectly reasonable to point out that there is a solution that works at both the individual and global levels. If you want to control your own android devices, there are several good options and if more people start making those choices then the overall situation will also improve.
BrightGlow 5y ago
The general problem I have (personally) with these type of complaints is that there is no real way for any of these companies to act on it further. In the case of Google, they already have acted on it. It's just noise to them at this point. If you believe something else is being snuffed out, it would help to mention what it is so people can help you. Because making that statement without context doesn't really stand alone, it's also just noise.
- jjulius 5y ago
  >In the case of Google, they already have acted on it. And in the case of vendors who haven't...?
  - BrightGlow 5y ago
    Which vendors are those? I could try to name some, but they might not necessarily be the ones you would come up with.
    - jjulius 5y ago
      Allow me to rephrase. You say that such complaints are just noise to Google because they have already acted on these complaints (ie, Pixel bootloaders are unlocked). On that, I think you and I agree re: pointless complaining. I'm asking, why not continue to complain in an effort to push vendors with locked bootloaders to unlock them? Specific vendors are irrelevant, I'm just curious if you do/don't think people should complain to them, as well.
      - BrightGlow 5y ago
        I don't know what you mean specific vendors are irrelevant, if you're not complaining to anyone in particular, then it's just talking into the void.
        jjulius 5y ago
        You've simultaneously demonstrated a misunderstanding of my comment, and - correct me if I'm wrong - answered my question. My comment is not about specific vendors and their actions. My comment is only about wondering when, in your mind, is a valid time for people to complain; a philosophical question. That's why the question is broad - is it OK for people to complain about vendors who have yet to take action? Your comment just now suggests that, yes, contrary to your post complaining about complainers, you likely think it's fine to complain to/about vendors who haven't taken action you'd like to see taken.
        BrightGlow 5y ago
        I'm not concerned with what's valid or fine or not, this is just if you want a chance to get your problem solved or if you want to waste your own time on a complaint that is to the wrong people. These out-of-context complaints/rants happen so often online that twitter even has a meme for it: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sir,_this_is_an_Arby's https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sir,_this_is_an_Arby's Edit: Your logic in the last paragraph doesn't follow to me, as I was responding to a specific complaint. So that's another reason I can't really give an answer to the question.
- pabs3 5y ago
  Google could definitely act on it further by leveraging their agreements with vendors who ship the proprietary Google components of most Android devices. That risks those vendors reimplementing the proprietary components from scratch though, which would fragment the Android ecosystem further.
- voidnullnil 5y ago
  False. You just want to meta-complain. c0l0 has pointed out how Google(R) MoronNet(TM) in practice usually negates any benefit gained from how virtuous their kernel maintenance process is.

shkkmo 5y ago

> but I don't think there's a way out any more. The poster wasn't just complaining about "most phones" but claiming there was no solution. It seems perfectly reasonable to point out that there is a solution that works at both the individual and global levels. If you want to control your own android devices, there are several good options and if more people start making those choices then the overall situation will also improve.

BrightGlow 5y ago

The general problem I have (personally) with these type of complaints is that there is no real way for any of these companies to act on it further. In the case of Google, they already have acted on it. It's just noise to them at this point. If you believe something else is being snuffed out, it would help to mention what it is so people can help you. Because making that statement without context doesn't really stand alone, it's also just noise.

jjulius 5y ago
>In the case of Google, they already have acted on it. And in the case of vendors who haven't...?
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  Which vendors are those? I could try to name some, but they might not necessarily be the ones you would come up with.
  - jjulius 5y ago
    Allow me to rephrase. You say that such complaints are just noise to Google because they have already acted on these complaints (ie, Pixel bootloaders are unlocked). On that, I think you and I agree re: pointless complaining. I'm asking, why not continue to complain in an effort to push vendors with locked bootloaders to unlock them? Specific vendors are irrelevant, I'm just curious if you do/don't think people should complain to them, as well.
    - BrightGlow 5y ago
      I don't know what you mean specific vendors are irrelevant, if you're not complaining to anyone in particular, then it's just talking into the void.
      - jjulius 5y ago
        You've simultaneously demonstrated a misunderstanding of my comment, and - correct me if I'm wrong - answered my question. My comment is not about specific vendors and their actions. My comment is only about wondering when, in your mind, is a valid time for people to complain; a philosophical question. That's why the question is broad - is it OK for people to complain about vendors who have yet to take action? Your comment just now suggests that, yes, contrary to your post complaining about complainers, you likely think it's fine to complain to/about vendors who haven't taken action you'd like to see taken.
        BrightGlow 5y ago
        I'm not concerned with what's valid or fine or not, this is just if you want a chance to get your problem solved or if you want to waste your own time on a complaint that is to the wrong people. These out-of-context complaints/rants happen so often online that twitter even has a meme for it: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sir,_this_is_an_Arby's https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sir,_this_is_an_Arby's Edit: Your logic in the last paragraph doesn't follow to me, as I was responding to a specific complaint. So that's another reason I can't really give an answer to the question.
pabs3 5y ago
Google could definitely act on it further by leveraging their agreements with vendors who ship the proprietary Google components of most Android devices. That risks those vendors reimplementing the proprietary components from scratch though, which would fragment the Android ecosystem further.
voidnullnil 5y ago
False. You just want to meta-complain. c0l0 has pointed out how Google(R) MoronNet(TM) in practice usually negates any benefit gained from how virtuous their kernel maintenance process is.