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Or we can just stop doing social engineering and let people deal with natural order of things. These debates always make me upset on the hubris of people that t

by kvgr 5y ago

Or we can just stop doing social engineering and let people deal with natural order of things. These debates always make me upset on the hubris of people that think they know what is better for other people.

easytiger 5y ago
That sums up the last 18 months in a nutshell
goodcanadian 5y ago
Indeed, in Hawaii, at 20 degrees north, the sun rises at 6am and sets at 6pm with little variation from summer to winter (there is no daylight saving; what would be the point?). A lot of people work 7am to 3pm to leave a couple of hours of sunlight to go surfing after work. I never personally did that schedule, but it made a lot of sense to me.
wpietri 5y ago
That's an argument for getting rid of clocks altogether, as clock time is a social fiction. Our modern notion of global time wasn't invented until railroads and long-distance communications made it necessary. Before that people relied on local solar time, where noon is whenever the sun is highest at the town hall. That's also socially constructed, just for a smaller social unit. The only natural order of things for individuals is daylight where one is. In which case, one doesn't really need a clock at all, just the various natural markers like twilight, sunrise, and noon. Of course, the whole notion of individualism is a relatively recent modern invention. Naturally humans are eusocial primates who live in close groups. So if you're after truly natural, "morning" is when your troop leaders get up and "evening" is when they start to bed down, and it's a thumping for you if you're noisy at the wrong time. Alternatively, we could admit that modern society exists and isn't going away and work together come up with some useful global definition of social time that works reasonably well for all concerned.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  So, questions over gender roles are pushing society towards gender-neutral bathrooms (aka individual stalls). Maybe questions over work-times should push society over better sound-proofing in living habitats, and permanent (i.e. at all times) noise limits in residential zones?
- bluGill 5y ago
  That only works until you have to synchronize time with someone else. If you can afford a private jet with pilots that live inside it at all times in case you want to go, then no problem. For the rest of us we depend on larger airplanes that take a few hundred people at a time (and are a lot more environmentally friendly). Likewise for trains. Or classes in school.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I'm not sure what to make of this comment. It sounds contrary in tone, but it seems like we both agree "modern society exists and isn't going away" and that we must "come up with some useful global definition of social time".
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
The natural order of things is for everyone to run on their own local solar time. Do you really want to deal with that?

by kvgr 5y ago

easytiger 5y ago

That sums up the last 18 months in a nutshell

goodcanadian 5y ago

Indeed, in Hawaii, at 20 degrees north, the sun rises at 6am and sets at 6pm with little variation from summer to winter (there is no daylight saving; what would be the point?). A lot of people work 7am to 3pm to leave a couple of hours of sunlight to go surfing after work. I never personally did that schedule, but it made a lot of sense to me.

wpietri 5y ago

That's an argument for getting rid of clocks altogether, as clock time is a social fiction. Our modern notion of global time wasn't invented until railroads and long-distance communications made it necessary. Before that people relied on local solar time, where noon is whenever the sun is highest at the town hall. That's also socially constructed, just for a smaller social unit. The only natural order of things for individuals is daylight where one is. In which case, one doesn't really need a clock at all, just the various natural markers like twilight, sunrise, and noon. Of course, the whole notion of individualism is a relatively recent modern invention. Naturally humans are eusocial primates who live in close groups. So if you're after truly natural, "morning" is when your troop leaders get up and "evening" is when they start to bed down, and it's a thumping for you if you're noisy at the wrong time. Alternatively, we could admit that modern society exists and isn't going away and work together come up with some useful global definition of social time that works reasonably well for all concerned.

Chris2048 5y ago
So, questions over gender roles are pushing society towards gender-neutral bathrooms (aka individual stalls). Maybe questions over work-times should push society over better sound-proofing in living habitats, and permanent (i.e. at all times) noise limits in residential zones?
bluGill 5y ago
That only works until you have to synchronize time with someone else. If you can afford a private jet with pilots that live inside it at all times in case you want to go, then no problem. For the rest of us we depend on larger airplanes that take a few hundred people at a time (and are a lot more environmentally friendly). Likewise for trains. Or classes in school.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I'm not sure what to make of this comment. It sounds contrary in tone, but it seems like we both agree "modern society exists and isn't going away" and that we must "come up with some useful global definition of social time".

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

The natural order of things is for everyone to run on their own local solar time. Do you really want to deal with that?