5 ms·

In the UK at least I don't really see the argument for DST. All it seems to do is fuck up my already precarious sleep cycle in exchange for what seems to be som

by mhh__ 5y ago

In the UK at least I don't really see the argument for DST. All it seems to do is fuck up my already precarious sleep cycle in exchange for what seems to be some farmers productivity (but they only make up 0.1% of the population roughly)

de_Selby 5y ago
It's not just farmers. It was done away with in the UK for 3 years back in the late 60s and people hated it. There are 2 options, either going with summer time permanently which seems the most sensible approach in theory and what they did with the British Summer time experiment. The problem is that although having longer evenings in winter sounds good in theory it means that it's dark until 10am in the depths of winter and roads are icier when people are making their morning commute. The other option is to keep standard time, but that will mean losing the late evenings in summer and the sun rising even earlier which would be a loss. I don't see what the big issue people have with it is. It makes perfect sense for northern/southern latitudes and essentially all my clocks adjust themselves automatically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time#Periods_of_deviation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time#Periods_of...
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  > It was done away with in the UK for 2 years back in the late 60s and people hated it. Some people hated it, mostly Scots. In the south of England it was popular (I was there). Now I live in Norway rather further north than most of the UK and guess what we really don't find it difficult to go to work in the dark and nor do children find it hard to get safely to school (that last was the Scottish argument against permanent summer time). Edit: type No -> Now
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hpoe 5y ago
    To quote groundskeeper Willie "It won't last brothers and sisters are natural enemies. Like English men and Scots or Welshmen and Scots or Japanese and Scots or Scots and other Scots. Darn Scots they ruined Scotland." Guess we can add DST to that.
    - mattowen_uk 5y ago
      This is so ironic considering that Willie is an Orcadian, so is genetically Norwegian (mostly).
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Why not just start schools earlier/later in different months?
    - ghaff 5y ago
      As soon as you shift a big part of society, like kids going to school, much of the rest of society needs to shift to stay in sync. Congrats. You’ve just reimplemented a time shift but more chaotically. I used to be in camp DST year round. Now I don’t really care because I mostly get up when I want which varies from day to day.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        Is it a big part of society though? I would have though children walking to school is fairly independent to the rest of society that needed time-milestones. Would we assume parents are walking their children to school, hence need to start work later? If that's the case, why does it matter how dark it is?
        ghaff 5y ago
        Most parents of young children are at least seeing them onto school busses if not dropping them off at school themselves themselves. Childcare has to similarly be synced up. Personally I don’t care much these days but many do.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    > south of England Guilty as charged. South west though, not posh!
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      South west me too.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > I don't see what the big issue people have with it is. The issue is that the sudden change in sleep times is a really large problem for a lot of people. It even causes extra deaths.
neogodless 5y ago
Pretty sure farmers know how to get their work done with or without optimal sunlight. And modern equipment is not lacking in supplemental lighting.
- ukfarmer 5y ago
  Also, we don't pick the time we start or finish work based on what the clock says, although the weather definitely has quite a lot of input! The main effect of BST vs GMT on farm life is the unexpected one hour jump in the times of day that non-farm stuff happens, e.g. deliveries, times you can phone business, when the vet closes, etc.
ukfarmer 5y ago
UK farmer here. We're often cited as justification for BST vs GMT, but it's complete nonsense. We don't care! In fact, the discontinuity is a nuisance to us in many of the same ways as it is to city people. Time-dependent natural processes don't reconfigure themselves when some administrative body decides to shuffle the names of various times of day. If my cows want breakfast at 6am and you shift the clocks forward, they'll start shouting for Food Man(tm) at 5am instead.
- jack_riminton 5y ago
  Just out of interest how does a uk farmer find themselves on HN?
  - ukfarmer 5y ago
    Ah, I was on HN before I was a full-time farmer, and I still work on various free software stuff. After we sold the startup I co-founded to a large acquirer, I took on a Shropshire farm where I've been building a calf-rearing and beef enterprise.
    - jack_riminton 5y ago
      Ah that makes sense, thanks! living the dream that I hope to live one day
      - ukfarmer 5y ago
        The one thing I did that I'd recommend to anyone who wants to move into running a farm business: spend as much time as you can working for other farmers before you start. You'll have fun, learn loads, find your strengths and weaknesses, etc. The great thing is, if you are able to juggle tech stuff and farm work, each feels a bit like time-off from the other because they're so different.
        jack_riminton 5y ago
        Sound advice. Do you have a blog or anything?
yepthatsreality 5y ago
The “farmers need it” reasoning is a fallacy. A farmer is going to operate on when the sun comes up so they can see what they are doing. If sunrise is called 5am or 6am it is irrelevant to them performing their work.
- wpietri 5y ago
  It's not irrelevant to them (and anybody else who uses or wakes to daylight) coordinating with the rest of society, though. Which is the function of a standardized time. It didn't exist up until railroads were popular; before that each town set its own time based on solar noon.
meigwilym 5y ago
It's more to do with darker mornings in Scotland, and the danger that that might cause. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11643098 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11643098

by mhh__ 5y ago

de_Selby 5y ago

It's not just farmers. It was done away with in the UK for 3 years back in the late 60s and people hated it. There are 2 options, either going with summer time permanently which seems the most sensible approach in theory and what they did with the British Summer time experiment. The problem is that although having longer evenings in winter sounds good in theory it means that it's dark until 10am in the depths of winter and roads are icier when people are making their morning commute. The other option is to keep standard time, but that will mean losing the late evenings in summer and the sun rising even earlier which would be a loss. I don't see what the big issue people have with it is. It makes perfect sense for northern/southern latitudes and essentially all my clocks adjust themselves automatically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time#Periods_of_deviation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Summer_Time#Periods_of...

kwhitefoot 5y ago
> It was done away with in the UK for 2 years back in the late 60s and people hated it. Some people hated it, mostly Scots. In the south of England it was popular (I was there). Now I live in Norway rather further north than most of the UK and guess what we really don't find it difficult to go to work in the dark and nor do children find it hard to get safely to school (that last was the Scottish argument against permanent summer time). Edit: type No -> Now
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hpoe 5y ago
  To quote groundskeeper Willie "It won't last brothers and sisters are natural enemies. Like English men and Scots or Welshmen and Scots or Japanese and Scots or Scots and other Scots. Darn Scots they ruined Scotland." Guess we can add DST to that.
  - mattowen_uk 5y ago
    This is so ironic considering that Willie is an Orcadian, so is genetically Norwegian (mostly).
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Why not just start schools earlier/later in different months?
  - ghaff 5y ago
    As soon as you shift a big part of society, like kids going to school, much of the rest of society needs to shift to stay in sync. Congrats. You’ve just reimplemented a time shift but more chaotically. I used to be in camp DST year round. Now I don’t really care because I mostly get up when I want which varies from day to day.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Is it a big part of society though? I would have though children walking to school is fairly independent to the rest of society that needed time-milestones. Would we assume parents are walking their children to school, hence need to start work later? If that's the case, why does it matter how dark it is?
      - ghaff 5y ago
        Most parents of young children are at least seeing them onto school busses if not dropping them off at school themselves themselves. Childcare has to similarly be synced up. Personally I don’t care much these days but many do.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  > south of England Guilty as charged. South west though, not posh!
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    South west me too.
JohnFen 5y ago
> I don't see what the big issue people have with it is. The issue is that the sudden change in sleep times is a really large problem for a lot of people. It even causes extra deaths.

neogodless 5y ago

Pretty sure farmers know how to get their work done with or without optimal sunlight. And modern equipment is not lacking in supplemental lighting.

ukfarmer 5y ago
Also, we don't pick the time we start or finish work based on what the clock says, although the weather definitely has quite a lot of input! The main effect of BST vs GMT on farm life is the unexpected one hour jump in the times of day that non-farm stuff happens, e.g. deliveries, times you can phone business, when the vet closes, etc.

ukfarmer 5y ago

UK farmer here. We're often cited as justification for BST vs GMT, but it's complete nonsense. We don't care! In fact, the discontinuity is a nuisance to us in many of the same ways as it is to city people. Time-dependent natural processes don't reconfigure themselves when some administrative body decides to shuffle the names of various times of day. If my cows want breakfast at 6am and you shift the clocks forward, they'll start shouting for Food Man(tm) at 5am instead.

jack_riminton 5y ago
Just out of interest how does a uk farmer find themselves on HN?
- ukfarmer 5y ago
  Ah, I was on HN before I was a full-time farmer, and I still work on various free software stuff. After we sold the startup I co-founded to a large acquirer, I took on a Shropshire farm where I've been building a calf-rearing and beef enterprise.
  - jack_riminton 5y ago
    Ah that makes sense, thanks! living the dream that I hope to live one day
    - ukfarmer 5y ago
      The one thing I did that I'd recommend to anyone who wants to move into running a farm business: spend as much time as you can working for other farmers before you start. You'll have fun, learn loads, find your strengths and weaknesses, etc. The great thing is, if you are able to juggle tech stuff and farm work, each feels a bit like time-off from the other because they're so different.
      - jack_riminton 5y ago
        Sound advice. Do you have a blog or anything?

yepthatsreality 5y ago

The “farmers need it” reasoning is a fallacy. A farmer is going to operate on when the sun comes up so they can see what they are doing. If sunrise is called 5am or 6am it is irrelevant to them performing their work.

wpietri 5y ago
It's not irrelevant to them (and anybody else who uses or wakes to daylight) coordinating with the rest of society, though. Which is the function of a standardized time. It didn't exist up until railroads were popular; before that each town set its own time based on solar noon.

meigwilym 5y ago

It's more to do with darker mornings in Scotland, and the danger that that might cause. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11643098 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11643098