10 ms·

2006: Dwarf Fortress

289 points by JohnHammersley 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago
It is important, when contemplating Dwarf Fortress, to realise a couple of things. Firstly, and most obviously, the game is clearly some sort of work of art. The exact nature of the art is a bit difficult to pin down - certainly isn't an exercise in graphics and the plot is inconsistent between playthroughs - but nevertheless. The second thing to observe is it appears to be a life's work. A lifetime has not actually passed, but still there is a singleminded dedication here that is unusual. Thirdly, it is impossible for this sort of art to be a true lifetimes work because computers havn't been powerful enough to do this sort of thing for the full 50 years it takes to dedicate a life to one thing. Furthermore, not enough people have been exposed to computers yet. If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. Gamemakers like Tarn, possible multiple generations of gamemakers, polishing these things will have some remarkable outcomes. I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing, but it is all too easy to envy the people who will be young in the 22nd century.
- sshagent 5y ago
  Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many youtube lets plays to make different aspects be learnt. Its a beautiful piece of art for sure.
  - imdsm 5y ago
    I've played since 2006 and while I don't find much time these days, I return to it every few years to scratch an itch. I played a lot of ADOM in the old days, and naturally jumped onto DF when it appeared. With tilesets, things became easier, and then with Dwarf Therapist, easier too. Then we got packs like the "Lazy Newb" pack, and with Steam coming too, it'll become even more accessible to folks. The depth of what can be achieved is what amazes me as an engineer. I can build cisterns to hold water, underground reservoirs, a series of mechanisms to refill the water, and to move it to consumption points, through the use of labelled levers, but be sure to smooth the stone, lest you get dusty water. Have some drain away to create mist in a common area, everyone loves mist. And another floodgate to create a defensive section, should invaders breach the entrance. This is but one such area that can be brought about through the mechanics of the game, not to mention swimming practise in 1/2 depth water (7 is fully deep) and more. A truly wonderful game, and I'm honoured to have a crayon drawing from them, to have been like yourself a part of its history. Strike the earth!
    - ruste 5y ago
      I play with moderate regularity and have actually never used Dwarf Therapist. (I still regularly consult the wiki though.) The turning point for me that made the game a lot more fun was realizing I could modify the config to set a population cap. If you only every allow 10-20 dwarves you never feel like you're rushing to meet everyones needs and handle new members of your fort all while keeping everyone happy. You can focus on the story and relationships unfolding while meeting every dwarfs individual needs. Suddenly the game is fun again. I also enjoy playing small forts and never breaching into the caverns below. Without the caverns performance stays high. That's mostly a limitation of my computer though.
    - waynesonfire 5y ago
      so factorio, rimworld, etc..
      - harywilke 5y ago
        Those are mere gateway drugs.
        waynesonfire 5y ago
        if those are toys compared to this, i have to try this game. they did always feel like toys.
  - intended 5y ago
    I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to play safe.
    - ZetaZero 5y ago
      > This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."
      - TuringTest 5y ago
        Different strokes for different folks. Though not every game benefits from having to discover its basic rules by trial and error, there is some appeal to it exploring the unknown when the game is designed around it. Scape rooms are a game genre, after all.
      - mnw21cam 5y ago
        Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs.
        Filligree 5y ago
        > Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs. You also never really lose. It's always possible to reclaim an old fortress -- losing doesn't cause existence failure, it causes a nonfunctional fortress. If you abandon/retire instead of having everyone die, you may be able to find it in Adventure mode and meet some of your dwarves. Or you can kill the forgotten beast that destroyed it, then retire the adventurer and send in a reclamation party...
  - standardUser 5y ago
    I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and god-willing a UI that isn't optimized to waste my time, before I give it another go.
    - ajuc 5y ago
      There are mods and external tools that add normal graphics (top-down, isometric, even full 3d) and simplify micromanagement. It's not that bad if you use Lazy Newb Pack that has DF and most of these utils preconfigured. But yes, it isn't very accessible.
    - laumars 5y ago
      There’s plenty of graphical versions of DF. You’re not stuck with the console version if you dont like it. I’m fact there is a graphical version on Steam already
      - standardUser 5y ago
        I tried some of those, but in the end it was the interface that caused me to quit. As for Steam, that version is not released yet: https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/
    - munk-a 5y ago
      I think to understand the UI you've got to have grown up with vim or emacs where offering a wide range of features via rather shallow keyboard interactions to enable power users. I wouldn't say that nested menu driven interactions are entirely suitable - and I think that the first time you go through it helps immensely to have a tutorial open that will lead you through some basic things (designate chopping some trees for lumber - for instance). I also think that people who have been with it longer have a leg up here since the UI has slowly accumulated more complexity over time - the military interface and trade interfaces in particular are pretty hard to grok. That all said - I would say that DF doesn't fall into a trap very common in modern games: it never lies to you in the UI for simplicity, it is clear about what it's doing and most of the errors are relatively clear to comprehend. Some of these have been accumulated over time (i.e. damp/warm stone warnings) but generally when a feature is added that feature gets consistently signaled in all the UI portions that need it and information is sanely repeated. A good example is lava-safe metals which are pretty clearly highlighted in areas where it might be relevant (i.e. building a floodgate and switch mechanisms). I've frequently heard talk that cell-shading adds artistic flair or bloom allows better tooling around creating bright scenes - but the immensely obvious and clear style that DF achieves brings precisely what it needs to bring to the table. Ascii graphics make that game clearly legible while still allowing the imagination to roam and beautiful structures to be created - making a multi-z-level dining hall with balconies adding extra floor space around the roaring fire in the middle of the hall with dwarves dancing merrily around it... that is quite possible in DF - it's just not going to look like a triple-A game.
- indigochill 5y ago
  Although I'm usually a bazaar man when it comes to talking about the Cathedral and Bazaar, in theory there can be some awesome cathedrals, too. A digital equivalent to La Sagrada Familia, if you will. On the other hand, digital cathedrals are theoretically vulnerable to operating systems changes in a way physical cathedrals don't have to wrestle with as much (I guess maybe changing building code could be the closest analog?)
  - bitwize 5y ago
    I worked (technically still work) with a fellow who was a real long term thinker, and kept bringing up La Sagrada Familia. He kept saying "I just want to build a software equivalent." I showed him the demo 8088MPH, which took seven years to complete. He said, "Okay, that's the software equivalent of La Sagrada Familia".
  - pimterry 5y ago
    > A digital equivalent to La Sagrada Familia, if you will. > On the other hand, digital cathedrals are theoretically vulnerable to operating systems changes in a way physical cathedrals don't have to wrestle with as much (I guess maybe changing building code could be the closest analog?) Sagrada Familia actually does have analogous problems. When they started ~130 years ago, there was little in the way of planning regulation. In 2019 they had to go back and file for formal planning permits & licenses, and pay 4.6 million in taxes and fees to do so so that they could continue construction, more than a century after starting: https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/urban-planning-and-infrastructures/the-sagrada-familia-gets-a-valid-building-permit_842087.html https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/urban-planni... They also have an ongoing battle because during that 130 years of construction, somebody went and built a city block in the place where the original designs put the front door: https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2020-03-05/barcelona-quiere-decidir-este-ano-si-la-sagrada-familia-crece-mas.html https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2020-03-05/barcelona-qui... [Spanish]
- queuebert 5y ago
  In 2121, NetHack will be approaching a 4.0 release candidate.
- GLGirty 5y ago
  Do you think software is a medium that can create one-person (or small team) masterworks in any form but games? Candidates that come to my mind are lisp, unix, and visicalc. I wonder if the nature of software means that craft code is destined to fossilize. > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. My great grandkids can enjoy that if they survive antibiotic resistant microbes and the water wars.
  - jameshart 5y ago
    TeX, certainly. Specialized fields have their own little masterworks (Leland Smith’s SCORE perhaps?) - but these are maybe more analogous to the great works of Victorian engineering like the Brooklyn Bridge or the SS Great Britain than they resemble a symphony or a great painting.
- ajuc 5y ago
  > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games Check out nethack if you want to see what a few decades of development can do to a simple game.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. Gamemakers like Tarn, possible multiple generations of gamemakers, polishing these things will have some remarkable outcomes. I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing, but it is all too easy to envy the people who will be young in the 22nd century. I too share your optimism, and I feel fortunate to be alive in this period (and who knows, maybe in 2121), however at the same time I feel like Dwarf Fortress is unique in its complexity; I feel like its complexity and attention to detail requires a mind unlike anyone else's, like the singular geniuses of the scientific communities that came out with breakthrough discoveries and incredibly complicated maths. I find it hard to imagine DF but even deeper. But that might be my lack of imagination. I for one am happy to wait and see and be proven wrong.
  - BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
    An easy thought is the same complexity there is (ever increasing) but with all objects being implemented in an "atoms" style, so that everything is actually made of molecules. Like Minecraft, but more granular. It could even have its own (simplified) chemistry with actual Laws of Nature.
- dafoex 5y ago
  Art feels like the wrong word here. Art, to my mind, is impressive but ultimately gathers dust on a shelf. DF on the other hand is a complex machine that simulates whole worlds, and produces a different result each time you run it, and varies those results even more as you continue to interact. Its a living world that grows and evolves with you, and shows its technical prowess not through anything as mundane as graphics, but instead through the very beating heart that makes it such an interesting machine. It demonstrates the author's skill, determination, and ongoing mastery of their craft. Dwarf Fortress is a masterpiece, but to call it simply art doesn't do it justice. Losing is fun.
- jl6 5y ago
  It's a rare and beautiful thing indeed. NetHack is the other obvious comparison, but my impression is that development has happened in bursts of activity rather than as a continuous effort. Some MUDs have this kind of longitudinal development - like the Discworld MUD or LambdaMOO. And of course the AAA commercial MMORPGs with huge budgets and cattle users that get milked $14.99/month. Though I suspect those are unsustainable in the long run.
- marttt 5y ago
  > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. This would make a great Ask HN: which computer games of today might be remembered in 100 years? Or: which genres have the best chances for a 100+ year lifespan. I think I realized just now that we really do live in a time where games as cultural artefacts are stepping into the shoes of books. Wow. I've never been much of a gamer, but, uh, who knows, maybe my grand-grand-whatever-children of 2100 would also enjoy the first parts of Leisure Suit Larry? [1] It did tackle universal human problems, after all. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry_in_the_Land_of_the_Lounge_Lizards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry_in_the_Land...
- Razengan 5y ago
  > I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing That was like 40-50 years ago, along with birth of games, including many innovative ones from that era which have still yet to be remade. We just recently lost one of the last pioneers of this frontier, Sir Clive Sinclair. RIP
ajvs 5y ago
Can't wait for it's Steam release, the new UI looks awesome.
- edem 5y ago
  I wanted to write a comment with this exact same text!
riksucks 5y ago
The fact that dwarf fortress generates lores and story, makes me feel like I need to try out this game. But it always seems hard to get into
- tokai 5y ago
  You can go through and read the lore of a world without having to play.
  - annowiki 5y ago
    Speaking of this, I've yet to play the game for more than five minutes, but there are some great YouTubers that let you get into the game through lets play without having to master it: https://www.youtube.com/user/kruggsmash https://www.youtube.com/user/kruggsmash
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  if you install one of the "lazy newb pack" mods (this is the typical recommendation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126076.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126076.0) and watch a tutorial or two on how to use the interface, it's actually quite intuitive. Its interface is similar to vim in many ways.
  - riksucks 5y ago
    ah if its similar to vim, then I might give it a try, thank you so much beacon. Sometimes I feel like that these are essential things in nerd culture lol, and I dont feel cultured enough because I dont know these. But yeah lemme fire this up and try
    - AaronM 5y ago
      Id suggest reading a tutorial on the DFHack Workflow plugin. It makes the game much easier as you can just automate jobs for the dwarfs so you don't forget to do things like brew alcohol.
- 5y ago
cupofjoakim 5y ago
Dwarf Fortress is amazing. It's not for me, but I strongly feel that it's the most fascinating game out there. I'm happy it's out there and I hope the newly refreshed UI in the steam version lets others be as fascinated by it as I have. May it inspire a future generation of game makers!
29athrowaway 5y ago
There are a few games inspired in Dwarf Fortress, such as Gnomeria and Rimworld, for audiences that are a more casual. Dwarf Fortress is hard to master.
- jtms 5y ago
  Rimworld is an absolute masterpiece. As a long time DF player I highly, highly recommend Rimworld!
- INTPenis 5y ago
  Rimworld made me forget all my DF keyboard menu commands. From 2009 I had mastered DF keyboard shortcuts like a total maniac. But then I discovered Rimworld, I bought it when it wasn't even on Steam yet so the author e-mailed the download link to you. But I stopped playing when they introduced a bunch of royalty, ESP and religion. Now I'm waiting for the new DF UI in Steam because I wouldn't want to re-learn all the shortcuts.
  - untech 5y ago
    Well, “Royalty” adds quite interesting magic system, and “Ideology” adds belief systems, which are fun and are not required to be religious. You can have transhumanist female supremacists, who require their men to go around naked and really like weed parties. Anyway, Royalty and Ideology are DLCs, so you can totally play without them.
    - 29athrowaway 5y ago
      The DLCs are welcome additions because once you complete the tech tree and spaceship, you were forced to start over.
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  Minecraft was inspired in part by Dwarf Fortress as well.
  - 5y ago
kibwen 5y ago
> The heights to which that complexity has now reached are evidenced by two famous bugs: one involved too low a melting point for the fat layer of dwarven skin, and the other saw cats getting wildly drunk from licking their paws after walking over tavern floors sticky with spilled beer. These are the ones that always get mentioned, but over the game's whole history there are too many great bugs to name. One infamous one that I recall from the early days had to do with the lethality of carp. You see, Dwarf Fortress features character progression. Your dwarves have not just skills (armorsmith, record keeper, surgeon, conversationalist, cheese maker, etc.), but also basic stats: strength, agility, toughness. The way that you increase your stats is by exercising your skills. And of course every entity in the world is simulated in the same way, because why wouldn't it be? So what made carp so dangerous? Well, every game tick every carp on the map had to make a swim check to stay afloat... and swimming is a skill! So shortly after loading a map for the first time, your carp will have leveled up into legendarily tough, fast, and strong terrors. And because world generation often populates maps with tiny disconnected pools, and then places carp in those pools, the carp AI considered itself perpetually cornered, making them extremely aggressive! Thus the result is that any dwarf walking adjacent to a pool (which they often will of their own accord, to drink or (ironically) fish) will find themselves being bitten by a hulking super-carp and wrestled beneath the surface of the water to drown. So what do you do against this existential threat? Well, you wait for the first winter, at which point the map freezes over and all the carp asphyxiate. Fun!
- AndrewOMartin 5y ago
  Another case of "The Simpsons predicted it" ;) "No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death." https://comb.io/lthy2e https://comb.io/lthy2e
- triggercut 5y ago
  Thankyou! So many playthroughs full of messages about fighting carp suddenly all make sense!
  - Octopodes 5y ago
    That was fixed ages ago, but still exists as a running inside joke.
Tepix 5y ago
What's the situation regarding Dwarf fortress and Macs with the Apple M1 silicon? Last time i checked it didn't work (crashed during world generation) after Apple released macOS 11.1. I sure would like to give it a try!
- sprkwd 5y ago
  yup it works. Here's a post: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158322.msg7011555#msg7011555 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158322.msg701... Direct link: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12202 http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12202
overcast 5y ago
The obligatory greatest bug report ever. Dwarf Fortress developer gets in depth about it. So great. The complexity of this game is mind boggling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY
- TOMDM 5y ago
  I knew what this would be before I clicked and still ended up watching the whole story again. I think it makes up the crux of what makes Dwarf Fort great. You don't need two massive hideously complex systems, when hundreds of smaller ones that all interact are so much more satisfying. Dwarf Fortress seems to do both though, many large systems with hundreds of smaller interactions that build up to the whole. I really look forward to seeing where it ends up in a few decades.
  - andagainagain 5y ago
    Honestly I though it was going to be the story of an early bug where dwarves would carry around an arm in their mouth forever.
wisienkas 5y ago
Dwarf Fortress is an inspiration to drive upon for any other simulation like games. The depth of this game is truly incredible. I'd imagine if it could exists for a port to nintendo switch
triceratops 5y ago
I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because it's too hard. Even though I couldn't "get" it, I'm glad it exists.
- samvher 5y ago
  I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because I couldn't figure out the install/launch process. One day I will persevere.
  - MetallicCloud 5y ago
    The easiest way is to get a Lazy Newb Pack https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Utility:Lazy_Newb_Pack https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Utility:Lazy_New...
  - db48x 5y ago
    Really? You just unzip the thing somewhere, then run the program. No install necessary.
    - TobTobXX 5y ago
      Nah, the custom SDL versions messes everything up.
      - lapsis_beeftech 5y ago
        This is surprising to hear since SDL has never been an issue for me and I have been playing every version as soon as they are released for many years. Is it something that affects the Mac version (which I have never tried)?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        TobTobXX 5y ago
        Yes, I had no problem on Linux whatsoever. It's just Mac that has these weird issues.
traspler 5y ago
I really, really love all the retold stories people experienced while playing the game (embelished or not), two of my favourite: Bronzemurder - https://dfstories.com/bronzemurder/ https://dfstories.com/bronzemurder/ Bravemule's Matul Remrit - https://www.bravemule.com/matulremrit https://www.bravemule.com/matulremrit
- PablumPicasso 5y ago
  The earliest anecdote/retelling I heard about Dwarf Fortress (probably on slashdot) was that while someone was playing it; they accidentally dropped their dagger in a pond and couldn't reach it at the bottom of the pond. They were sad about it because it was a nice dagger, but then realised they could cast a "freeze" spell on the lake, which turned it to ice. Then, they dug down through the ice with their Pick to the bottom of the pond, so that they could retrieve the dropped dagger. I'm sure there's thousands of stories like this from Dwarf Fortress, but I remember it making an impression on me as a young developer, how much emergent complexity the game had. Fascinating. One day if I ever get enough spare time, I would love to play it for more than 5 minutes.
klondike_klive 5y ago
One thing I've never seen asked or answered is whether the name Bay 12 is a reference to the film Aliens - when Ripley picks up a crate with the loader and asks Apone "where do you want it?" he laughs and says "Bay twelve, please." Surely too obscure to be a coincidence?
- andagainagain 5y ago
  That is indeed the reference. I don't remember where I read it, but it came from toadyone I'm pretty sure. Might have been one of his early podcasts?
gowld 5y ago
Is there a self-playing/idle mode in Dwarf Fortress? Where you set some initial conditions and then watch the world evolve without having to take care of it?
- Crespyl 5y ago
  There isn't exactly any truly "self playing" mode, but you can always set up a fortress and then just see how long it runs before falling apart. The dwarves all have their own needs that they'll try to deal with on their own, and you can assign standing orders for things like farms and food production, as well as guard schedules and patrol routes for basic defenses. There's also the worldgen process which is probably the closest, but doesn't really let you inspect anything while it's happening. The "legends" gamemode lets you explore the history of the world after it's been established, and there's some 3rd party tools to make exploring the maps and timelines a little easier.
- ranger207 5y ago
  I saw this post on reddit[0] the other day which uses something called df-ai[1] [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/pqp9p2/dwarf_fortress_terrarium_df_ai/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/pqp9p2/dwarf... [1] https://github.com/BenLubar/df-ai https://github.com/BenLubar/df-ai
gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
Just an FYI for anyone who might be thinking of getting into the game. It took me about 6 weeks playing along with the wiki to “git gud” enough to have a mostly stable fort. I used tilesets for eye candy and eventually moved to some of the memory hacking tools like dwarf therapist for a better management UI. YMMV but if you are thinking “gosh it’s too complicated for me” just be patient with it and don’t be afraid to read the vast amount of documentation around the game. DF is an extremely rewarding mindf*ck. It’s probably the only game now that I can get so immersed that I blow past my bedtime and spend the next day, fatigued, thinking of what to try in game next.
- srcreigh 5y ago
  I first tried DF a few weeks ago. I tend to avoid wikis for games (Factorio, RuneScape, Minecraft, Valheim) since it can "ruin the fun". Can you comment on the experience of reading the wiki and still having fun? Does the wiki have spoilers? Is the game just too complex to spoil with any amount of reading about it?
  - Paul_S 5y ago
    It's not an adventure game - the wiki will not spoil it for you. It just gives you the tools. The fun is in using these and you are guaranteed to face a unique set of issues in your playtrhough.
  - andagainagain 5y ago
    Use the wiki. Even better, abuse the wiki, and use tutorials excessively. Even better imo is to play until you get really confused, then use all the internet resources possible to understand wtf is going on.Then repeat. I tend to avoid things like the lazy been pack or graphics packs. That's up to your taste though.
Paul_S 5y ago
I love Dwarf Fortress but I don't understand the criteria for inclusion of games after 1990. Almost all the titles previous to that are more or less industry milestones but after that the choice become more and more aribtrary and obscure.

It is important, when contemplating Dwarf Fortress, to realise a couple of things. Firstly, and most obviously, the game is clearly some sort of work of art. The exact nature of the art is a bit difficult to pin down - certainly isn't an exercise in graphics and the plot is inconsistent between playthroughs - but nevertheless. The second thing to observe is it appears to be a life's work. A lifetime has not actually passed, but still there is a singleminded dedication here that is unusual. Thirdly, it is impossible for this sort of art to be a true lifetimes work because computers havn't been powerful enough to do this sort of thing for the full 50 years it takes to dedicate a life to one thing. Furthermore, not enough people have been exposed to computers yet. If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. Gamemakers like Tarn, possible multiple generations of gamemakers, polishing these things will have some remarkable outcomes. I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing, but it is all too easy to envy the people who will be young in the 22nd century.

sshagent 5y ago
Nicely put. DF is simply the best game I've ever played, and I've been hooked by many from many genres. The stories told within are insane. I only play it every couple of years when the desire catches me, yet still patreon to DF. This is what games should be. Obviously an insane barrier of entry, took me a few goes to 'get it' and even now i barely get it despite playing many varingly 'fun' forts. I watched many youtube lets plays to make different aspects be learnt. Its a beautiful piece of art for sure.
- imdsm 5y ago
  I've played since 2006 and while I don't find much time these days, I return to it every few years to scratch an itch. I played a lot of ADOM in the old days, and naturally jumped onto DF when it appeared. With tilesets, things became easier, and then with Dwarf Therapist, easier too. Then we got packs like the "Lazy Newb" pack, and with Steam coming too, it'll become even more accessible to folks. The depth of what can be achieved is what amazes me as an engineer. I can build cisterns to hold water, underground reservoirs, a series of mechanisms to refill the water, and to move it to consumption points, through the use of labelled levers, but be sure to smooth the stone, lest you get dusty water. Have some drain away to create mist in a common area, everyone loves mist. And another floodgate to create a defensive section, should invaders breach the entrance. This is but one such area that can be brought about through the mechanics of the game, not to mention swimming practise in 1/2 depth water (7 is fully deep) and more. A truly wonderful game, and I'm honoured to have a crayon drawing from them, to have been like yourself a part of its history. Strike the earth!
  - ruste 5y ago
    I play with moderate regularity and have actually never used Dwarf Therapist. (I still regularly consult the wiki though.) The turning point for me that made the game a lot more fun was realizing I could modify the config to set a population cap. If you only every allow 10-20 dwarves you never feel like you're rushing to meet everyones needs and handle new members of your fort all while keeping everyone happy. You can focus on the story and relationships unfolding while meeting every dwarfs individual needs. Suddenly the game is fun again. I also enjoy playing small forts and never breaching into the caverns below. Without the caverns performance stays high. That's mostly a limitation of my computer though.
  - waynesonfire 5y ago
    so factorio, rimworld, etc..
    - harywilke 5y ago
      Those are mere gateway drugs.
      - waynesonfire 5y ago
        if those are toys compared to this, i have to try this game. they did always feel like toys.
- intended 5y ago
  I kinda liked the earlier version of the game, before guides and tools made it easier to get into. This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. Before that I would always play in a manner that guaranteed success, re-loading if something went wrong. With DF it was either something going spectacularly wrong, or utter boredom when I decided to play safe.
  - ZetaZero 5y ago
    > This is not a dig on guides, its instead an appreciation for what the game taught me - the idea that losing could be fun. I disagree. Losing a game because of undocumented behavior or bugs has never been fun for me. Sid Meier - "A game is a series of interesting choices."
    - TuringTest 5y ago
      Different strokes for different folks. Though not every game benefits from having to discover its basic rules by trial and error, there is some appeal to it exploring the unknown when the game is designed around it. Scape rooms are a game genre, after all.
    - mnw21cam 5y ago
      Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs.
      - Filligree 5y ago
        > Typically in DF, you lose because of a hilarious sequence of events that overwhelms your fortress' capacity to cope, not through undocumented behaviour and bugs. You also never really lose. It's always possible to reclaim an old fortress -- losing doesn't cause existence failure, it causes a nonfunctional fortress. If you abandon/retire instead of having everyone die, you may be able to find it in Adventure mode and meet some of your dwarves. Or you can kill the forgotten beast that destroyed it, then retire the adventurer and send in a reclamation party...
- standardUser 5y ago
  I'm no stranger to involved and complicated games (Crusader Kings, Kerbal Space Program, as examples) but the Dwarf Fortress interface appeared to me to be some sort of elaborate ruse designed to test my patience, or to simply mock me. I'm glad the folks who have the patience to navigate those menus and decipher those "graphics" have rewarding experiences, but I'll wait for the Steam version with actual graphics, and god-willing a UI that isn't optimized to waste my time, before I give it another go.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    There are mods and external tools that add normal graphics (top-down, isometric, even full 3d) and simplify micromanagement. It's not that bad if you use Lazy Newb Pack that has DF and most of these utils preconfigured. But yes, it isn't very accessible.
  - laumars 5y ago
    There’s plenty of graphical versions of DF. You’re not stuck with the console version if you dont like it. I’m fact there is a graphical version on Steam already
    - standardUser 5y ago
      I tried some of those, but in the end it was the interface that caused me to quit. As for Steam, that version is not released yet: https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/975370/Dwarf_Fortress/
  - munk-a 5y ago
    I think to understand the UI you've got to have grown up with vim or emacs where offering a wide range of features via rather shallow keyboard interactions to enable power users. I wouldn't say that nested menu driven interactions are entirely suitable - and I think that the first time you go through it helps immensely to have a tutorial open that will lead you through some basic things (designate chopping some trees for lumber - for instance). I also think that people who have been with it longer have a leg up here since the UI has slowly accumulated more complexity over time - the military interface and trade interfaces in particular are pretty hard to grok. That all said - I would say that DF doesn't fall into a trap very common in modern games: it never lies to you in the UI for simplicity, it is clear about what it's doing and most of the errors are relatively clear to comprehend. Some of these have been accumulated over time (i.e. damp/warm stone warnings) but generally when a feature is added that feature gets consistently signaled in all the UI portions that need it and information is sanely repeated. A good example is lava-safe metals which are pretty clearly highlighted in areas where it might be relevant (i.e. building a floodgate and switch mechanisms). I've frequently heard talk that cell-shading adds artistic flair or bloom allows better tooling around creating bright scenes - but the immensely obvious and clear style that DF achieves brings precisely what it needs to bring to the table. Ascii graphics make that game clearly legible while still allowing the imagination to roam and beautiful structures to be created - making a multi-z-level dining hall with balconies adding extra floor space around the roaring fire in the middle of the hall with dwarves dancing merrily around it... that is quite possible in DF - it's just not going to look like a triple-A game.
indigochill 5y ago
Although I'm usually a bazaar man when it comes to talking about the Cathedral and Bazaar, in theory there can be some awesome cathedrals, too. A digital equivalent to La Sagrada Familia, if you will. On the other hand, digital cathedrals are theoretically vulnerable to operating systems changes in a way physical cathedrals don't have to wrestle with as much (I guess maybe changing building code could be the closest analog?)
- bitwize 5y ago
  I worked (technically still work) with a fellow who was a real long term thinker, and kept bringing up La Sagrada Familia. He kept saying "I just want to build a software equivalent." I showed him the demo 8088MPH, which took seven years to complete. He said, "Okay, that's the software equivalent of La Sagrada Familia".
- pimterry 5y ago
  > A digital equivalent to La Sagrada Familia, if you will. > On the other hand, digital cathedrals are theoretically vulnerable to operating systems changes in a way physical cathedrals don't have to wrestle with as much (I guess maybe changing building code could be the closest analog?) Sagrada Familia actually does have analogous problems. When they started ~130 years ago, there was little in the way of planning regulation. In 2019 they had to go back and file for formal planning permits & licenses, and pay 4.6 million in taxes and fees to do so so that they could continue construction, more than a century after starting: https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/urban-planning-and-infrastructures/the-sagrada-familia-gets-a-valid-building-permit_842087.html https://www.barcelona.cat/infobarcelona/en/tema/urban-planni... They also have an ongoing battle because during that 130 years of construction, somebody went and built a city block in the place where the original designs put the front door: https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2020-03-05/barcelona-quiere-decidir-este-ano-si-la-sagrada-familia-crece-mas.html https://elpais.com/espana/catalunya/2020-03-05/barcelona-qui... [Spanish]
queuebert 5y ago
In 2121, NetHack will be approaching a 4.0 release candidate.
GLGirty 5y ago
Do you think software is a medium that can create one-person (or small team) masterworks in any form but games? Candidates that come to my mind are lisp, unix, and visicalc. I wonder if the nature of software means that craft code is destined to fossilize. > If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. My great grandkids can enjoy that if they survive antibiotic resistant microbes and the water wars.
- jameshart 5y ago
  TeX, certainly. Specialized fields have their own little masterworks (Leland Smith’s SCORE perhaps?) - but these are maybe more analogous to the great works of Victorian engineering like the Brooklyn Bridge or the SS Great Britain than they resemble a symphony or a great painting.
ajuc 5y ago
> If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games Check out nethack if you want to see what a few decades of development can do to a simple game.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. Gamemakers like Tarn, possible multiple generations of gamemakers, polishing these things will have some remarkable outcomes. I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing, but it is all too easy to envy the people who will be young in the 22nd century. I too share your optimism, and I feel fortunate to be alive in this period (and who knows, maybe in 2121), however at the same time I feel like Dwarf Fortress is unique in its complexity; I feel like its complexity and attention to detail requires a mind unlike anyone else's, like the singular geniuses of the scientific communities that came out with breakthrough discoveries and incredibly complicated maths. I find it hard to imagine DF but even deeper. But that might be my lack of imagination. I for one am happy to wait and see and be proven wrong.
- BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
  An easy thought is the same complexity there is (ever increasing) but with all objects being implemented in an "atoms" style, so that everything is actually made of molecules. Like Minecraft, but more granular. It could even have its own (simplified) chemistry with actual Laws of Nature.
dafoex 5y ago
Art feels like the wrong word here. Art, to my mind, is impressive but ultimately gathers dust on a shelf. DF on the other hand is a complex machine that simulates whole worlds, and produces a different result each time you run it, and varies those results even more as you continue to interact. Its a living world that grows and evolves with you, and shows its technical prowess not through anything as mundane as graphics, but instead through the very beating heart that makes it such an interesting machine. It demonstrates the author's skill, determination, and ongoing mastery of their craft. Dwarf Fortress is a masterpiece, but to call it simply art doesn't do it justice. Losing is fun.
jl6 5y ago
It's a rare and beautiful thing indeed. NetHack is the other obvious comparison, but my impression is that development has happened in bursts of activity rather than as a continuous effort. Some MUDs have this kind of longitudinal development - like the Discworld MUD or LambdaMOO. And of course the AAA commercial MMORPGs with huge budgets and cattle users that get milked $14.99/month. Though I suspect those are unsustainable in the long run.
marttt 5y ago
> If humanity survives to 2121, there are going to be some amazing games. This would make a great Ask HN: which computer games of today might be remembered in 100 years? Or: which genres have the best chances for a 100+ year lifespan. I think I realized just now that we really do live in a time where games as cultural artefacts are stepping into the shoes of books. Wow. I've never been much of a gamer, but, uh, who knows, maybe my grand-grand-whatever-children of 2100 would also enjoy the first parts of Leisure Suit Larry? [1] It did tackle universal human problems, after all. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry_in_the_Land_of_the_Lounge_Lizards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leisure_Suit_Larry_in_the_Land...
Razengan 5y ago
> I am glad to be around now at the birth of computing That was like 40-50 years ago, along with birth of games, including many innovative ones from that era which have still yet to be remade. We just recently lost one of the last pioneers of this frontier, Sir Clive Sinclair. RIP

ajvs 5y ago

Can't wait for it's Steam release, the new UI looks awesome.

edem 5y ago
I wanted to write a comment with this exact same text!

riksucks 5y ago

The fact that dwarf fortress generates lores and story, makes me feel like I need to try out this game. But it always seems hard to get into

tokai 5y ago
You can go through and read the lore of a world without having to play.
- annowiki 5y ago
  Speaking of this, I've yet to play the game for more than five minutes, but there are some great YouTubers that let you get into the game through lets play without having to master it: https://www.youtube.com/user/kruggsmash https://www.youtube.com/user/kruggsmash
beaconstudios 5y ago
if you install one of the "lazy newb pack" mods (this is the typical recommendation: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126076.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126076.0) and watch a tutorial or two on how to use the interface, it's actually quite intuitive. Its interface is similar to vim in many ways.
- riksucks 5y ago
  ah if its similar to vim, then I might give it a try, thank you so much beacon. Sometimes I feel like that these are essential things in nerd culture lol, and I dont feel cultured enough because I dont know these. But yeah lemme fire this up and try
  - AaronM 5y ago
    Id suggest reading a tutorial on the DFHack Workflow plugin. It makes the game much easier as you can just automate jobs for the dwarfs so you don't forget to do things like brew alcohol.
5y ago

cupofjoakim 5y ago

Dwarf Fortress is amazing. It's not for me, but I strongly feel that it's the most fascinating game out there. I'm happy it's out there and I hope the newly refreshed UI in the steam version lets others be as fascinated by it as I have. May it inspire a future generation of game makers!

29athrowaway 5y ago

There are a few games inspired in Dwarf Fortress, such as Gnomeria and Rimworld, for audiences that are a more casual. Dwarf Fortress is hard to master.

jtms 5y ago
Rimworld is an absolute masterpiece. As a long time DF player I highly, highly recommend Rimworld!
INTPenis 5y ago
Rimworld made me forget all my DF keyboard menu commands. From 2009 I had mastered DF keyboard shortcuts like a total maniac. But then I discovered Rimworld, I bought it when it wasn't even on Steam yet so the author e-mailed the download link to you. But I stopped playing when they introduced a bunch of royalty, ESP and religion. Now I'm waiting for the new DF UI in Steam because I wouldn't want to re-learn all the shortcuts.
- untech 5y ago
  Well, “Royalty” adds quite interesting magic system, and “Ideology” adds belief systems, which are fun and are not required to be religious. You can have transhumanist female supremacists, who require their men to go around naked and really like weed parties. Anyway, Royalty and Ideology are DLCs, so you can totally play without them.
  - 29athrowaway 5y ago
    The DLCs are welcome additions because once you complete the tech tree and spaceship, you were forced to start over.
tastyfreeze 5y ago
Minecraft was inspired in part by Dwarf Fortress as well.
- 5y ago

kibwen 5y ago

> The heights to which that complexity has now reached are evidenced by two famous bugs: one involved too low a melting point for the fat layer of dwarven skin, and the other saw cats getting wildly drunk from licking their paws after walking over tavern floors sticky with spilled beer. These are the ones that always get mentioned, but over the game's whole history there are too many great bugs to name. One infamous one that I recall from the early days had to do with the lethality of carp. You see, Dwarf Fortress features character progression. Your dwarves have not just skills (armorsmith, record keeper, surgeon, conversationalist, cheese maker, etc.), but also basic stats: strength, agility, toughness. The way that you increase your stats is by exercising your skills. And of course every entity in the world is simulated in the same way, because why wouldn't it be? So what made carp so dangerous? Well, every game tick every carp on the map had to make a swim check to stay afloat... and swimming is a skill! So shortly after loading a map for the first time, your carp will have leveled up into legendarily tough, fast, and strong terrors. And because world generation often populates maps with tiny disconnected pools, and then places carp in those pools, the carp AI considered itself perpetually cornered, making them extremely aggressive! Thus the result is that any dwarf walking adjacent to a pool (which they often will of their own accord, to drink or (ironically) fish) will find themselves being bitten by a hulking super-carp and wrestled beneath the surface of the water to drown. So what do you do against this existential threat? Well, you wait for the first winter, at which point the map freezes over and all the carp asphyxiate. Fun!

AndrewOMartin 5y ago
Another case of "The Simpsons predicted it" ;) "No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death." https://comb.io/lthy2e https://comb.io/lthy2e
triggercut 5y ago
Thankyou! So many playthroughs full of messages about fighting carp suddenly all make sense!
- Octopodes 5y ago
  That was fixed ages ago, but still exists as a running inside joke.

Tepix 5y ago

What's the situation regarding Dwarf fortress and Macs with the Apple M1 silicon? Last time i checked it didn't work (crashed during world generation) after Apple released macOS 11.1. I sure would like to give it a try!

sprkwd 5y ago
yup it works. Here's a post: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158322.msg7011555#msg7011555 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=158322.msg701... Direct link: http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12202 http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=12202

overcast 5y ago

The obligatory greatest bug report ever. Dwarf Fortress developer gets in depth about it. So great. The complexity of this game is mind boggling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAhHkJQ3KgY

TOMDM 5y ago
I knew what this would be before I clicked and still ended up watching the whole story again. I think it makes up the crux of what makes Dwarf Fort great. You don't need two massive hideously complex systems, when hundreds of smaller ones that all interact are so much more satisfying. Dwarf Fortress seems to do both though, many large systems with hundreds of smaller interactions that build up to the whole. I really look forward to seeing where it ends up in a few decades.
- andagainagain 5y ago
  Honestly I though it was going to be the story of an early bug where dwarves would carry around an arm in their mouth forever.

wisienkas 5y ago

Dwarf Fortress is an inspiration to drive upon for any other simulation like games. The depth of this game is truly incredible. I'd imagine if it could exists for a port to nintendo switch

triceratops 5y ago

I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because it's too hard. Even though I couldn't "get" it, I'm glad it exists.

samvher 5y ago
I've tried playing DF a couple of times but gave up because I couldn't figure out the install/launch process. One day I will persevere.
- MetallicCloud 5y ago
  The easiest way is to get a Lazy Newb Pack https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Utility:Lazy_Newb_Pack https://www.dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Utility:Lazy_New...
- db48x 5y ago
  Really? You just unzip the thing somewhere, then run the program. No install necessary.
  - TobTobXX 5y ago
    Nah, the custom SDL versions messes everything up.
    - lapsis_beeftech 5y ago
      This is surprising to hear since SDL has never been an issue for me and I have been playing every version as soon as they are released for many years. Is it something that affects the Mac version (which I have never tried)?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - TobTobXX 5y ago
        Yes, I had no problem on Linux whatsoever. It's just Mac that has these weird issues.

traspler 5y ago

I really, really love all the retold stories people experienced while playing the game (embelished or not), two of my favourite: Bronzemurder - https://dfstories.com/bronzemurder/ https://dfstories.com/bronzemurder/ Bravemule's Matul Remrit - https://www.bravemule.com/matulremrit https://www.bravemule.com/matulremrit

PablumPicasso 5y ago
The earliest anecdote/retelling I heard about Dwarf Fortress (probably on slashdot) was that while someone was playing it; they accidentally dropped their dagger in a pond and couldn't reach it at the bottom of the pond. They were sad about it because it was a nice dagger, but then realised they could cast a "freeze" spell on the lake, which turned it to ice. Then, they dug down through the ice with their Pick to the bottom of the pond, so that they could retrieve the dropped dagger. I'm sure there's thousands of stories like this from Dwarf Fortress, but I remember it making an impression on me as a young developer, how much emergent complexity the game had. Fascinating. One day if I ever get enough spare time, I would love to play it for more than 5 minutes.

klondike_klive 5y ago

One thing I've never seen asked or answered is whether the name Bay 12 is a reference to the film Aliens - when Ripley picks up a crate with the loader and asks Apone "where do you want it?" he laughs and says "Bay twelve, please." Surely too obscure to be a coincidence?

andagainagain 5y ago
That is indeed the reference. I don't remember where I read it, but it came from toadyone I'm pretty sure. Might have been one of his early podcasts?

gowld 5y ago

Is there a self-playing/idle mode in Dwarf Fortress? Where you set some initial conditions and then watch the world evolve without having to take care of it?

Crespyl 5y ago
There isn't exactly any truly "self playing" mode, but you can always set up a fortress and then just see how long it runs before falling apart. The dwarves all have their own needs that they'll try to deal with on their own, and you can assign standing orders for things like farms and food production, as well as guard schedules and patrol routes for basic defenses. There's also the worldgen process which is probably the closest, but doesn't really let you inspect anything while it's happening. The "legends" gamemode lets you explore the history of the world after it's been established, and there's some 3rd party tools to make exploring the maps and timelines a little easier.
ranger207 5y ago
I saw this post on reddit[0] the other day which uses something called df-ai[1] [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/pqp9p2/dwarf_fortress_terrarium_df_ai/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/pqp9p2/dwarf... [1] https://github.com/BenLubar/df-ai https://github.com/BenLubar/df-ai

gunfighthacksaw 5y ago

Just an FYI for anyone who might be thinking of getting into the game. It took me about 6 weeks playing along with the wiki to “git gud” enough to have a mostly stable fort. I used tilesets for eye candy and eventually moved to some of the memory hacking tools like dwarf therapist for a better management UI. YMMV but if you are thinking “gosh it’s too complicated for me” just be patient with it and don’t be afraid to read the vast amount of documentation around the game. DF is an extremely rewarding mindf*ck. It’s probably the only game now that I can get so immersed that I blow past my bedtime and spend the next day, fatigued, thinking of what to try in game next.

srcreigh 5y ago
I first tried DF a few weeks ago. I tend to avoid wikis for games (Factorio, RuneScape, Minecraft, Valheim) since it can "ruin the fun". Can you comment on the experience of reading the wiki and still having fun? Does the wiki have spoilers? Is the game just too complex to spoil with any amount of reading about it?
- Paul_S 5y ago
  It's not an adventure game - the wiki will not spoil it for you. It just gives you the tools. The fun is in using these and you are guaranteed to face a unique set of issues in your playtrhough.
- andagainagain 5y ago
  Use the wiki. Even better, abuse the wiki, and use tutorials excessively. Even better imo is to play until you get really confused, then use all the internet resources possible to understand wtf is going on.Then repeat. I tend to avoid things like the lazy been pack or graphics packs. That's up to your taste though.

Paul_S 5y ago

I love Dwarf Fortress but I don't understand the criteria for inclusion of games after 1990. Almost all the titles previous to that are more or less industry milestones but after that the choice become more and more aribtrary and obscure.