5 ms·

I think it’s a horrible idea. It means moving to a future, better standard (let’s say, USB-D) is neigh impossible as it would require a change to an EU directiv

by Aaargh20318 5y ago

I think it’s a horrible idea. It means moving to a future, better standard (let’s say, USB-D) is neigh impossible as it would require a change to an EU directive (that is: 27 countries need to agree on it). Just getting this into law has already been in the works for years and years, if the EU had worked a bit faster we would have been stuck with micro USB-B, which would have been unfortunate.

foepys 5y ago
This could've all been avoided if all manufacturers just followed the previous EU guideline (explicitly not a law) and agreed on a connector. It more or less said "we don't care what you choose, just choose one". But Apple didn't want to listen and now the EU commission is sick of it and introduces a law. It's the industry's own damn fault that it didn't take the hand that reached out to it.
vegardx 5y ago
You mean that Aprils fools joke USB-D?
selfhoster11 5y ago
We're stuck with USB A on desktops since the late 90s. It hasn't harmed us. The connector is non-reversible, but it's robust with many, many disconnect-connect cycles and can support higher speeds with USB 3.2. I still use USB chargers made 10 years ago. They work fine. I think it's fine to be stuck on a "good enough" standard, if this results in less e-waste and less need to upgrade all accessories simply because the dominant connection port changed. If we wanted to have the standard update itself every 15 years or so, we can have a body dedicated to selecting, or creating, such a standard. We don't write automotive standards directly into our laws, so we don't have to the same with charging port technology either. As the maxim goes, "every problem of computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection, except for having too many layers of indirection".
- jsudi 5y ago
  > I think it's fine to be stuck on a "good enough" standard, if this results in less e-waste and less need to upgrade all accessories simply because the dominant connection port changed. That’s your opinion. I disagree and I certainly don’t want to see it written into law.
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    but without writing in law apple will never care about environment right? They are getting money from each connector so why would they? Is it possible to solve such issue without law? What solution do you propose? If you have solution let us know?
    - ben_w 5y ago
      I don’t think that’s entirely fair to Apple: they are trying to not include a charger at all in the first place (just the cable), which does a lot more for the environment than including a charger which you can use with anything as well as forcing the cable to be useful for more than one device.
      - foepys 5y ago
        The law introduced by the EU commission also addresses this. They don't want chargers to be included by default anymore exactly because of this.
        ben_w 5y ago
        Good, but not relevant to me defending Apple in this instance; Apple are even doing this (or at least tried to do this) where there not only wasn’t a legal requirement to do so, but a legal prohibition against doing so: https://www.engadget.com/apple-brazil-fine-over-iphone-12-charger-171754262.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALgykKyxhZmrcgFdnLEpSyKHeOzq4mkf5el5EFXN27GzYJQyxYw4r-mstsqeTsOgsRyCRGgd0G2Ppz_CBxSM1slmkeZvqUpkQO7ZaYJvh7ZoWM2DUOFnwiDrWDEwVbuw__sM4azDSk7WgsiYHHpANKx_QhwRh9x1XDehi5rGdtnI https://www.engadget.com/apple-brazil-fine-over-iphone-12-ch...
Deukhoofd 5y ago
Depends on the legislation, so lets wait on that.
boudin 5y ago
What you say is not necessarily true, but I couldn't find anything that talks about how the connector that is mandated is chosen. It will be interesting to know how the connector is agreed upon and by whom.
sfg 5y ago
Yeah. Plus, this is such a minor issue. You get a device and the charger for it and that is the end of it. If you buy multiple devices that you carry around with incompatible chargers then you carry (assuming you even need to charge on the road) a couple of cables (or one with multiple connectors). It's about as much of a none issue as you will ever get.
- iSnow 5y ago
  It wasn't a non-issue till the EU stepped in. Every manufacturer had their own plug and some (eg. Nokia) even had more than one, of course they were incompatible. I'm grateful that the EU stepped up here. I feel for Apple's hurt pride here that they should adopt something they didn't invent, but since we are a mixed Android/Apple household, getting rid of Lightning will be nice.
  - sfg 5y ago
    It was always a non-issue. I live in a mixed Apple and Android house and its a non-issue. If it was an issue, we'd just consolidate our house, but we don't, because -- like you -- we don't find it enough of an issue to care.
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      Do you make sure that your cables are properly disposed? How do you dispose of them?
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Precisely. Nokia was blessedly standardised, in fact, because you only ever had 2 charging ports so you could mix and match. Most other manufacturers were a mess with proprietary connectors that weren't barrel jacks.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  This is not a minor issue. Sony had a different charger model (with a different voltage down to tens of volts, or with a different connector) for nearly every single device released. Want more than one power brick (one for the office and one for the home/vacation home)? Spend a lot of money for the convenience, or carry 2 kilos of chargers wherever you go. Some devices eschewed power supplies altogether and used cradles. Lose the cradle and the device is unusable. Carry the cradle, and it becomes an extra 500g in your everyday carry. If you were lucky, your device supported a barrel jack or another generic connector, but you had to carry around a universal power supply with adjustable voltage and polarity because they all used different configurations. Get something wrong, and your expensive device is fried. I remember the early 2000s and the pre-USB charger era. I don't remember it fondly, because it was frankly stupid. Even the worst universal standard is better than no standard at all. And I say this having lived through the era of Micro USB dominance, an era that has killed the charging ports of many of my phones.
adrianN 5y ago
The way it usually works with industry standards is that if the industry agrees that a different connector would be superior, their lobbyists are highly effective at changing the legislation.
avianlyric 5y ago
We don't know the language to the legislation yet, so I think it's worth withhold judgment for now. Based on other recent legislation from the EU that I've had to work closely with, I would say the EU legislators are very aware of the pitfalls that come with writing a specific technology into law. They seem to deal with this by writing an initial recommendation, or providing a few concrete examples of how to conform int to the law. But hand off the longer term management to some sort of agency or regulator that already exists, and instructs them to work directly with industry to fine tune the technical aspects. Taking this approach create a natural escape hatch for new standards being introduced without new law being written. It'll still create a natural dampener on innovation in specific area, but it avoid completely stifling it. Also on quick FYI, USB-B has never been used on a modern mobile phone. The port is bigger than most phones! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ_B).jpg#/media/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ_B).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ...
- Aissen 5y ago
  The comment now says "micro USB-B", which is in fact the previous de-facto standard before the type C family.
seszett 5y ago
> 27 countries need to agree on it No, this has to be voted by the parliament like any law, not approved by each member. > getting this into law has already been in the works for years and years The goal was to not require a law and make manufacturers agree to a standard without legislation, because that makes it easier to evolve. Apple is the only one that wouldn't agree to that, so that means it has to become a law apparently, otherwise they won't do anything. If a new standard appears, I expect the USB-IF to notify the EU while they're working on it so that legislation can evolve in time. The EU parliament is very quick to pass new laws when necessary.
- M2Ys4U 5y ago
  >No, this has to be voted by the parliament like any law, not approved by each member. Almost all EU legislation needs the approval of the Council of the European Union - which comprises representatives from all 27 member states. The Ordinary Legislative Procedure goes Commission -> Parliament -> Council -> Adoption. If the Council and Parliament don't immediately agree then there's a step in there for negotiation between all three institutions. Aaargh20318 is probably wrong that all 27 need to agree, though, most things are decided in Council on the basis of Qualified Majority Voting which does not need all 27 to agree.
Reason077 5y ago
USB C's physical form is likely to remain stable for years to come. There seems to be plenty of room to evolve the cables and device capabilities while retaining physical backwards compatibility. I mean, USB 4 can already do up to 40 Gbps, and upcoming versions of the standard are said to be going to 80 Gbps[1] [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16858/intel-executive-posts-thunderbolt-5-photo-80-gbps-and-pam3-then-deletes-it https://www.anandtech.com/show/16858/intel-executive-posts-t...

foepys 5y ago

This could've all been avoided if all manufacturers just followed the previous EU guideline (explicitly not a law) and agreed on a connector. It more or less said "we don't care what you choose, just choose one". But Apple didn't want to listen and now the EU commission is sick of it and introduces a law. It's the industry's own damn fault that it didn't take the hand that reached out to it.

vegardx 5y ago

You mean that Aprils fools joke USB-D?

selfhoster11 5y ago

We're stuck with USB A on desktops since the late 90s. It hasn't harmed us. The connector is non-reversible, but it's robust with many, many disconnect-connect cycles and can support higher speeds with USB 3.2. I still use USB chargers made 10 years ago. They work fine. I think it's fine to be stuck on a "good enough" standard, if this results in less e-waste and less need to upgrade all accessories simply because the dominant connection port changed. If we wanted to have the standard update itself every 15 years or so, we can have a body dedicated to selecting, or creating, such a standard. We don't write automotive standards directly into our laws, so we don't have to the same with charging port technology either. As the maxim goes, "every problem of computer science can be solved with another layer of indirection, except for having too many layers of indirection".

jsudi 5y ago
> I think it's fine to be stuck on a "good enough" standard, if this results in less e-waste and less need to upgrade all accessories simply because the dominant connection port changed. That’s your opinion. I disagree and I certainly don’t want to see it written into law.
- cute_boi 5y ago
  but without writing in law apple will never care about environment right? They are getting money from each connector so why would they? Is it possible to solve such issue without law? What solution do you propose? If you have solution let us know?
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I don’t think that’s entirely fair to Apple: they are trying to not include a charger at all in the first place (just the cable), which does a lot more for the environment than including a charger which you can use with anything as well as forcing the cable to be useful for more than one device.
    - foepys 5y ago
      The law introduced by the EU commission also addresses this. They don't want chargers to be included by default anymore exactly because of this.
      - ben_w 5y ago
        Good, but not relevant to me defending Apple in this instance; Apple are even doing this (or at least tried to do this) where there not only wasn’t a legal requirement to do so, but a legal prohibition against doing so: https://www.engadget.com/apple-brazil-fine-over-iphone-12-charger-171754262.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALgykKyxhZmrcgFdnLEpSyKHeOzq4mkf5el5EFXN27GzYJQyxYw4r-mstsqeTsOgsRyCRGgd0G2Ppz_CBxSM1slmkeZvqUpkQO7ZaYJvh7ZoWM2DUOFnwiDrWDEwVbuw__sM4azDSk7WgsiYHHpANKx_QhwRh9x1XDehi5rGdtnI https://www.engadget.com/apple-brazil-fine-over-iphone-12-ch...

Deukhoofd 5y ago

Depends on the legislation, so lets wait on that.

boudin 5y ago

What you say is not necessarily true, but I couldn't find anything that talks about how the connector that is mandated is chosen. It will be interesting to know how the connector is agreed upon and by whom.

sfg 5y ago

Yeah. Plus, this is such a minor issue. You get a device and the charger for it and that is the end of it. If you buy multiple devices that you carry around with incompatible chargers then you carry (assuming you even need to charge on the road) a couple of cables (or one with multiple connectors). It's about as much of a none issue as you will ever get.

iSnow 5y ago
It wasn't a non-issue till the EU stepped in. Every manufacturer had their own plug and some (eg. Nokia) even had more than one, of course they were incompatible. I'm grateful that the EU stepped up here. I feel for Apple's hurt pride here that they should adopt something they didn't invent, but since we are a mixed Android/Apple household, getting rid of Lightning will be nice.
- sfg 5y ago
  It was always a non-issue. I live in a mixed Apple and Android house and its a non-issue. If it was an issue, we'd just consolidate our house, but we don't, because -- like you -- we don't find it enough of an issue to care.
  - Kbelicius 5y ago
    Do you make sure that your cables are properly disposed? How do you dispose of them?
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Precisely. Nokia was blessedly standardised, in fact, because you only ever had 2 charging ports so you could mix and match. Most other manufacturers were a mess with proprietary connectors that weren't barrel jacks.
selfhoster11 5y ago
This is not a minor issue. Sony had a different charger model (with a different voltage down to tens of volts, or with a different connector) for nearly every single device released. Want more than one power brick (one for the office and one for the home/vacation home)? Spend a lot of money for the convenience, or carry 2 kilos of chargers wherever you go. Some devices eschewed power supplies altogether and used cradles. Lose the cradle and the device is unusable. Carry the cradle, and it becomes an extra 500g in your everyday carry. If you were lucky, your device supported a barrel jack or another generic connector, but you had to carry around a universal power supply with adjustable voltage and polarity because they all used different configurations. Get something wrong, and your expensive device is fried. I remember the early 2000s and the pre-USB charger era. I don't remember it fondly, because it was frankly stupid. Even the worst universal standard is better than no standard at all. And I say this having lived through the era of Micro USB dominance, an era that has killed the charging ports of many of my phones.

adrianN 5y ago

The way it usually works with industry standards is that if the industry agrees that a different connector would be superior, their lobbyists are highly effective at changing the legislation.

avianlyric 5y ago

We don't know the language to the legislation yet, so I think it's worth withhold judgment for now. Based on other recent legislation from the EU that I've had to work closely with, I would say the EU legislators are very aware of the pitfalls that come with writing a specific technology into law. They seem to deal with this by writing an initial recommendation, or providing a few concrete examples of how to conform int to the law. But hand off the longer term management to some sort of agency or regulator that already exists, and instructs them to work directly with industry to fine tune the technical aspects. Taking this approach create a natural escape hatch for new standards being introduced without new law being written. It'll still create a natural dampener on innovation in specific area, but it avoid completely stifling it. Also on quick FYI, USB-B has never been used on a modern mobile phone. The port is bigger than most phones! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ_B).jpg#/media/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ_B).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USB-3.0-Stecker_(Typ...

Aissen 5y ago
The comment now says "micro USB-B", which is in fact the previous de-facto standard before the type C family.

seszett 5y ago

> 27 countries need to agree on it No, this has to be voted by the parliament like any law, not approved by each member. > getting this into law has already been in the works for years and years The goal was to not require a law and make manufacturers agree to a standard without legislation, because that makes it easier to evolve. Apple is the only one that wouldn't agree to that, so that means it has to become a law apparently, otherwise they won't do anything. If a new standard appears, I expect the USB-IF to notify the EU while they're working on it so that legislation can evolve in time. The EU parliament is very quick to pass new laws when necessary.

M2Ys4U 5y ago
>No, this has to be voted by the parliament like any law, not approved by each member. Almost all EU legislation needs the approval of the Council of the European Union - which comprises representatives from all 27 member states. The Ordinary Legislative Procedure goes Commission -> Parliament -> Council -> Adoption. If the Council and Parliament don't immediately agree then there's a step in there for negotiation between all three institutions. Aaargh20318 is probably wrong that all 27 need to agree, though, most things are decided in Council on the basis of Qualified Majority Voting which does not need all 27 to agree.

Reason077 5y ago

USB C's physical form is likely to remain stable for years to come. There seems to be plenty of room to evolve the cables and device capabilities while retaining physical backwards compatibility. I mean, USB 4 can already do up to 40 Gbps, and upcoming versions of the standard are said to be going to 80 Gbps[1] [1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/16858/intel-executive-posts-thunderbolt-5-photo-80-gbps-and-pam3-then-deletes-it https://www.anandtech.com/show/16858/intel-executive-posts-t...