5 ms·

This aligns with some other stuff I've read. But it's not necessarily the case everywhere - apparently there's a suspicion that the difference between dairy fro

This aligns with some other stuff I've read. But it's not necessarily the case everywhere - apparently there's a suspicion that the difference between dairy from grass fed and grain fed cows may be a big factor in the differences that different studies report. In Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc. most dairy is grass-fed, which apparently makes it much higher in fat soluble vitamins (especially K2), Omega-3 fats, Conjugated Linoleic Acid, etc., some or all of which may be more-than cancelling out any negative factors from things like the saturated fat, so most studies with cohorts from these regions show dairy to have some net positive effect to health long term. Whereas the studies that show increased cardiovascular risk tend to be more from places like the US, where dairy cows are apparently more likely to be fed from soy etc. (It may also be a factor that more dairy in the US is probably more sweetened too, like yoghurts etc.?). Apparently removing fat is also a bad thing if you're starting from good dairy, because you're also taking away a lot of the really good fat-soluble vitamins. But if you're starting from grain-fed dairy that doesn't have much of that to start with, reduced fat dairy is perhaps better. This article is quite well referenced and mentions these points in a few of the sections: https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-dairy-bad-or-good https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-dairy-bad-or-good

Kaibeezy 5y ago
Thanks for the additional perspective and positive info on Euro dairy. I saw the oversimplified “dairy fat good” analysis on regular media, which made me happy but then instantly realize there’s probably a lot more to it than that.
- stephen_g 5y ago
  Yeah, from my research a lot of dietary stuff is like that. I have tried to completely overhaul my diet over the last year or so to be healthier, but there seem to be so many confounding variables that it can be really hard to make firm conclusions for a lot of things. But yeah, the answer to a lot of things does seem to be "it's complicated". Take the "fat is bad" narrative - was always massive oversimplification, and it really depends on the type of fat - some fats (like monounsaturated and Omega-3 fats) it seems we really should be eating more of, not less!
  - klipt 5y ago
    I suspect a lot of foods that used to be healthy are now unhealthy because they're factory farmed, or have had a lot of nutrition bred out of them due to breeding for looks or high sugar instead. Even vegetables are bad for you if bred to be high in sugar.
pkaye 5y ago
So are cows in Europe, Australia, New Zealand fed 100% grass throughout their life?
- tuatoru 5y ago
  In New Zealand, dairy cows, no. Probably 80% - 95%. Many, perhaps most, herds will be 100% pasture fed (grass/clover mix, or just grass.) There is often supplementary feeding of palm kernel (the solid bits of palm oil seeds left over after the oil is pressed out) maize, and/or lucerne. Beef cows, these days, yes, almost all. It's part of the branding the country's big meat packers are going for (100% grass fed).
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  Not 100% but a very large majority of their feed would be fresh grass or silage[1]. If you can't make a profit feeding them grass why are you raising cattle? The economic calculus changes a lot if animal feedstock is highly subsidised like soy or alfalfa in the US but for all its many, many flaws the EU's common agricultural policy is mostly about things people want to eat. [1] Less confident about this for Australia but I still think that's true.
  - kurthr 5y ago
    Frankly, the same is true in Northern California. I see lots of cows out to pasture at all times of year. I'm sure there must be somewhere in the country where it's cheaper to feed grain (or too cold to go outside?), but even with the crazy land prices out here it's cheaper to feed them grass. It's the same price as everything else: https://cloversonoma.com/ https://cloversonoma.com/
    - Kaibeezy 5y ago
      In NorCal there would be more demand for “better” cow products from local grass-fed cows/steers, even if more expensive, right? Some of those West Marin cows have a heck of a nice ocean view while they graze.
rsj_hn 5y ago
I am skeptical of this idea of "good dairy" and "bad diary". Especially the corn fed/grass fed distinction. It would be nice if you had some studies to back up the claim that corn versus grass fed dairy makes a difference in long term health outcomes rather than just pointing out that there is small difference in omega-3 levels in corn-fed versus grass fed beef. To the best of my knowledge, the science on this is very mixed at best.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Dairy is bad in general. It is proven to increase biomarkers of oxidation and inflammation. It's the most common food allergen by far, but mostly causes very mild symptoms. a bit of stuffy nose, a bit of reflux, things like that. Consumption of dairy in general is correlated with osteoporosis. Some hypothesize this effect is mediated by the osteolytic effects of chronic allergic inflammation. BMJ study from 2014: https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 Diary is inflammatory: "In subsamples of two additional cohorts, one in males and one in females, a positive association was seen between milk intake and both urine 8-iso-PGF2α (a biomarker of oxidative stress) and serum interleukin 6 (a main inflammatory biomarker)." "High milk intake was associated with higher mortality in one cohort of women and in another cohort of men, and with higher fracture incidence in women." 8-iso-PGF2α is produced by inflammatory cells (mast cells, etc). You do not need to have clinically significant allergy to suffer from chronic inflammation.
  - rsanheim 5y ago
    > Consumption of dairy in general is correlated with osteoporosis. Have some research that supports this? Consuming dairy (for those who aren't allergic or sensitive) is one of the best ways to get keep calcium and vitamin D intake high, which is pretty important for _preventing_ osteoporosis (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353177/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353177/ as one example, I'm sure there are many other studies on this).
    - DoreenMichele 5y ago
jmpman 5y ago
Dairy cattle around me are primarily fed alfalfa. Would that be considered “grass fed”?
- seiferteric 5y ago
  I also wondered about that... Isn't most "corn" fed to cattle actually silage which is fermented field corn, i.e. the WHOLE plant, not just the grain portion? And corn is actually grass...
  - seiferteric 5y ago
    Actually I did some reading and while silage is used, actual grain is used as well, look up cattle feed concentrate.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    We gave your food the option to eat a salad — to wash down all of the sugar (grains).
inter_netuser 5y ago
Dairy is just bad in general, it's just that some people can tolerate it better than others. It's an inflammatory food. BMJ study from 2014: https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 "In subsamples of two additional cohorts, one in males and one in females, a positive association was seen between milk intake and both urine 8-iso-PGF2α (a biomarker of oxidative stress) and serum interleukin 6 (a main inflammatory biomarker)." "High milk intake was associated with higher mortality in one cohort of women and in another cohort of men, and with higher fracture incidence in women." 8-iso-PGF2α is produced by inflammatory cells (mast cells, etc). You do not need to have clinically significant allergy or sensitivity to suffer from chronic inflammation, which can be silent. Dairy is inflammatory: https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut... As you can see, the Arthritis Foundation does not give blanket recommendation to eat diary "because cal/vitD". Instead they urge caution and even try diary elimination. Another study, 2015: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26674761/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26674761/ "Directly Associated with Dairy Food Consumption and Low-Grade Inflammation in a German Adult Population" Another one, 1994. “Consumption of dairy products, particularly at age 20 years, was associated with an increased risk of hip fracture in old age. (“Case-Control Study of Risk Factors for Hip Fractures in the Elderly”. American Journal of Epidemiology. Vol. 139, No. 5, 1994). One more, from 1997. “Data does not support the hypothesis that higher consumption of milk or other food sources of calcium by adult women protects against hip or forearm fractures.” (Source: Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. American Journal of Public Health. 1997). 12 year long Harvard Nurses’ Health Study found that those who consumed the most calcium from dairy foods broke more bones than those who rarely drank milk. This is a broad study based on 77,761 women aged between 34 and 59 years of age. 25 years of results that point to no benefits at best, and corroborate association of diary intake and chronic inflammation at worst. Got milk?
- tarsinge 5y ago
  Isn’t there a confusion between milk and all other dairy products? I know plenty of people (me included) that never consume milk but eat cheese and butter. Unfermented milk high in lactose seems to have a very different nutritional profile.
tarsinge 5y ago
I heard it’s the same for eggs, their omega-3 to omega-6 ratio can completely change depending on how the chicken are fed, even maybe their activity.

Kaibeezy 5y ago

Thanks for the additional perspective and positive info on Euro dairy. I saw the oversimplified “dairy fat good” analysis on regular media, which made me happy but then instantly realize there’s probably a lot more to it than that.

stephen_g 5y ago
Yeah, from my research a lot of dietary stuff is like that. I have tried to completely overhaul my diet over the last year or so to be healthier, but there seem to be so many confounding variables that it can be really hard to make firm conclusions for a lot of things. But yeah, the answer to a lot of things does seem to be "it's complicated". Take the "fat is bad" narrative - was always massive oversimplification, and it really depends on the type of fat - some fats (like monounsaturated and Omega-3 fats) it seems we really should be eating more of, not less!
- klipt 5y ago
  I suspect a lot of foods that used to be healthy are now unhealthy because they're factory farmed, or have had a lot of nutrition bred out of them due to breeding for looks or high sugar instead. Even vegetables are bad for you if bred to be high in sugar.

pkaye 5y ago

So are cows in Europe, Australia, New Zealand fed 100% grass throughout their life?

tuatoru 5y ago
In New Zealand, dairy cows, no. Probably 80% - 95%. Many, perhaps most, herds will be 100% pasture fed (grass/clover mix, or just grass.) There is often supplementary feeding of palm kernel (the solid bits of palm oil seeds left over after the oil is pressed out) maize, and/or lucerne. Beef cows, these days, yes, almost all. It's part of the branding the country's big meat packers are going for (100% grass fed).
barry-cotter 5y ago
Not 100% but a very large majority of their feed would be fresh grass or silage[1]. If you can't make a profit feeding them grass why are you raising cattle? The economic calculus changes a lot if animal feedstock is highly subsidised like soy or alfalfa in the US but for all its many, many flaws the EU's common agricultural policy is mostly about things people want to eat. [1] Less confident about this for Australia but I still think that's true.
- kurthr 5y ago
  Frankly, the same is true in Northern California. I see lots of cows out to pasture at all times of year. I'm sure there must be somewhere in the country where it's cheaper to feed grain (or too cold to go outside?), but even with the crazy land prices out here it's cheaper to feed them grass. It's the same price as everything else: https://cloversonoma.com/ https://cloversonoma.com/
  - Kaibeezy 5y ago
    In NorCal there would be more demand for “better” cow products from local grass-fed cows/steers, even if more expensive, right? Some of those West Marin cows have a heck of a nice ocean view while they graze.

rsj_hn 5y ago

I am skeptical of this idea of "good dairy" and "bad diary". Especially the corn fed/grass fed distinction. It would be nice if you had some studies to back up the claim that corn versus grass fed dairy makes a difference in long term health outcomes rather than just pointing out that there is small difference in omega-3 levels in corn-fed versus grass fed beef. To the best of my knowledge, the science on this is very mixed at best.

inter_netuser 5y ago
Dairy is bad in general. It is proven to increase biomarkers of oxidation and inflammation. It's the most common food allergen by far, but mostly causes very mild symptoms. a bit of stuffy nose, a bit of reflux, things like that. Consumption of dairy in general is correlated with osteoporosis. Some hypothesize this effect is mediated by the osteolytic effects of chronic allergic inflammation. BMJ study from 2014: https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 Diary is inflammatory: "In subsamples of two additional cohorts, one in males and one in females, a positive association was seen between milk intake and both urine 8-iso-PGF2α (a biomarker of oxidative stress) and serum interleukin 6 (a main inflammatory biomarker)." "High milk intake was associated with higher mortality in one cohort of women and in another cohort of men, and with higher fracture incidence in women." 8-iso-PGF2α is produced by inflammatory cells (mast cells, etc). You do not need to have clinically significant allergy to suffer from chronic inflammation.
- rsanheim 5y ago
  > Consumption of dairy in general is correlated with osteoporosis. Have some research that supports this? Consuming dairy (for those who aren't allergic or sensitive) is one of the best ways to get keep calcium and vitamin D intake high, which is pretty important for _preventing_ osteoporosis (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353177/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7353177/ as one example, I'm sure there are many other studies on this).
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago

jmpman 5y ago

Dairy cattle around me are primarily fed alfalfa. Would that be considered “grass fed”?

seiferteric 5y ago
I also wondered about that... Isn't most "corn" fed to cattle actually silage which is fermented field corn, i.e. the WHOLE plant, not just the grain portion? And corn is actually grass...
- seiferteric 5y ago
  Actually I did some reading and while silage is used, actual grain is used as well, look up cattle feed concentrate.
- atatatat 5y ago
  We gave your food the option to eat a salad — to wash down all of the sugar (grains).

inter_netuser 5y ago

Dairy is just bad in general, it's just that some people can tolerate it better than others. It's an inflammatory food. BMJ study from 2014: https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g6015 "In subsamples of two additional cohorts, one in males and one in females, a positive association was seen between milk intake and both urine 8-iso-PGF2α (a biomarker of oxidative stress) and serum interleukin 6 (a main inflammatory biomarker)." "High milk intake was associated with higher mortality in one cohort of women and in another cohort of men, and with higher fracture incidence in women." 8-iso-PGF2α is produced by inflammatory cells (mast cells, etc). You do not need to have clinically significant allergy or sensitivity to suffer from chronic inflammation, which can be silent. Dairy is inflammatory: https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/healthy-living/nut... As you can see, the Arthritis Foundation does not give blanket recommendation to eat diary "because cal/vitD". Instead they urge caution and even try diary elimination. Another study, 2015: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26674761/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26674761/ "Directly Associated with Dairy Food Consumption and Low-Grade Inflammation in a German Adult Population" Another one, 1994. “Consumption of dairy products, particularly at age 20 years, was associated with an increased risk of hip fracture in old age. (“Case-Control Study of Risk Factors for Hip Fractures in the Elderly”. American Journal of Epidemiology. Vol. 139, No. 5, 1994). One more, from 1997. “Data does not support the hypothesis that higher consumption of milk or other food sources of calcium by adult women protects against hip or forearm fractures.” (Source: Feskanich D, Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA. Milk, dietary calcium, and bone fractures in women: a 12-year prospective study. American Journal of Public Health. 1997). 12 year long Harvard Nurses’ Health Study found that those who consumed the most calcium from dairy foods broke more bones than those who rarely drank milk. This is a broad study based on 77,761 women aged between 34 and 59 years of age. 25 years of results that point to no benefits at best, and corroborate association of diary intake and chronic inflammation at worst. Got milk?

tarsinge 5y ago
Isn’t there a confusion between milk and all other dairy products? I know plenty of people (me included) that never consume milk but eat cheese and butter. Unfermented milk high in lactose seems to have a very different nutritional profile.

tarsinge 5y ago

I heard it’s the same for eggs, their omega-3 to omega-6 ratio can completely change depending on how the chicken are fed, even maybe their activity.