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> The capability in Xiaomi's Mi 10T 5G phone software had been turned off for the "European Union region", but can be turned on remotely at any time, the Defenc

by yumraj 5y ago

> The capability in Xiaomi's Mi 10T 5G phone software had been turned off for the "European Union region", but can be turned on remotely at any time, the Defence Ministry's National Cyber Security Centre said in the report. While a lot of comments are rightly focusing on the censorship aspect of it, IMHO, the most concerning part of this is that this intrusive capability, while disabled for the EU region can be remotely enabled at any time. This implies that Xiaomi, and most likely all Chinese phone vendors and by extension CCP, has backdoors in all these devices. This re-enabling is probably just the tip of the iceberg, wonder what all they can do via these backdoors?

thefounder 5y ago
>> This implies that Xiaomi, and most likely all Chinese phone vendors and by extension CCP, has backdoors in all these devices. They don't need backdoors. They are the "administrator" of your phone just like Apple is on iOS and MacOS or Microsoft on Windows boxes.You are just a guest. It just happens that the chinese admins(aka vendors) don't mind being nasty and clumsy at the same time. All the manufacturers/vendors are controlled by their government(more or less). That being said I don't buy chinese phones or software unless I have no choice but I don't trust Apple to shield my data from various governments either. It's just a matter of lesser evil.
- han2432 5y ago
  I think you will have a hard time proving beyond speculation that Apple or Microsoft has backdoors to their OS. Would be curious to see any sources though. I actually think that is the difference here, Chinese phones and possibly other devices have backdoors, but Apple/Microsoft likely do not.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I think the parent is being more expansive in what they call a "backdoor", and I tend to agree. Does Apple have the ability to remove an app or some bit of content off your phone (ostensibly to remove malware)? I believe they do? That feels like a backdoor to me. And I assume Google (and/or the phone's manufacturer) has the same ability on Android. No idea about Microsoft on Windows.
    - paxys 5y ago
      Backdoor implies something hidden and not advertised. Apple/Google/Microsoft and others are pretty clear about fully being in control of your device. They can push updates (both at the OS and app level), add new trusted root certificates, collect usage data, show ads, remotely track/lock/disable your device and lots more. Apple is even going to start scanning your phone for certain kinds of illegal content.
  - ohazi 5y ago
    > I think you will have a hard time proving beyond speculation that Apple or Microsoft has backdoors to their OS. This statement is absurd -- they don't need to keep a backdoor around because they control the front door. You do realize that controlling how/whether/when core system software updates are pushed to a device is equivalent to having a backdoor, don't you? The operating system on my phone can be 100% backdoor-free today, but if Apple decides that their next update is going to include backdoor, then tomorrow my phone is going to have a backdoor. Basically all consumer phones (save for a few cobbled together exceptions) implicitly accept arbitrary software updates from their upstream vendor.
    - rsync 5y ago
      "Basically all consumer phones (save for a few cobbled together exceptions) implicitly accept arbitrary software updates from their upstream vendor." Actually ... all phones of all kinds explicitly accept arbitrary updates from the carrier in the form of java code that they can upload, and run, on your SIM card. Your SIM card is a full fledged computer with CPU, RAM and storage and your carrier can upload and run arbitrary code on it.
      - ohazi 5y ago
        Yes, this is absolutely also true. However, there are some phones (including several iPhone generations) where the entire baseband/sim subsystem is isolated from the primary application processor and operating system, and essentially appears as something like a dumb USB modem that the OS can control / use / ignore as it pleases. In theory, this would make it difficult for a carrier to issue a baseband update that (for example) hoovers up photos from internal storage. This is the same reason you should prefer a cable modem that's physically separate from your router/wifi/etc. Your cable modem gets firmware updates via DOCSIS from your ISP, and if you have one of those combo boxes, you're essentially letting your ISP onto your internal network.
        Dah00n 5y ago
        >However, there are some phones (including several iPhone generations) where the entire baseband/sim subsystem is isolated from the primary application processor and operating system Yes, that's what the developer says. Totally unverifiable though unless it is both open source and you built and installed the firmware yourself.. and still there could be hidden firmware running. This is no different than Intel saying we can trust them with the Intel Management Engine.
  - david_allison 5y ago
    By the same definition, isn't Windows Update a backdoor: it can remotely enable/disable functionality?
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    I don't think you understand what is going on here. What you are saying is that iPhones cannot download data containing a list of things to block (or do whatever with) or that Apple cannot push an update. Xiaomi phones are downloading a JSON file. That has nothing to do with backdoors or remote access. In fact that whole debacle about Apple scanning a device for child pornography works just like it: Download data from a server and do something. If that is a backdoor than 100% of devices that are online are basically backdoored. Functionally this is no different than iOS downloading a list of apps to block.
russli1993 5y ago
But they didn't find anything in Huawei's device or oneplus device. That shows this is not a marching order from the ccp or government to export censorship abroad. If so, then all products with Chinese origin should all have them. What is likely happened here is that xiaomi included code they needed to comply with laws in china in products for aboard, but it is deactivated for in any region other than mainland china. They should have removed the code completely, either have different software builds or don't do anything on the client side to comply with laws in china. Apple complies with Chinese laws fine and I doubt they had to implement any client side changes. I doubt xiaomi and other Chinese company dares to enable censorship anywhere in international markets, or have a secret plan to control world's information discourse to support ccp. Any censorship or apparent support of ccp will be caught within seconds. Its commercial and political suicide. Also if they do have a secret plan, just blacking out whatever people are typing on their phones is such a dumb, stupid, and crude way of implementing censorship. Also, this report found no censorship mechanisms on huawei and oneplus phones. Yet they said people should ditch all Chinese phones, which implies all phones originated from Chinese origin companies have censorship mechanisms. That is a much larger conclusion than what the evidence they provided, seem like a politically motivated desire to discredit and defame all Chinese origin companies and products. I also doubt ccp has a marching order for Chinese companies to censor speech internationally and manipulate world's information discourse. Chinese phones have big market share already, and huawei's gear has wide market share in Europe, but no one ever experienced censorship on their device for speaking against China. And if there is a secret plan to control world's information, they are doing a terrible job at it. The covid origins, xinjiang Uyghurs, Hongkong. The point of view of Chinese side is non existent. For example the xinjiang Uyghur situation, I know people in xinjiang, many of whom are uyghur people, the accusation of mass genocide, 1 million imprisonment, wide spread physical abuse and rapes in prisons, massive internment camps with forced labor is wildly inaccurate from the truth. Yet, it hasn't stopped this from becoming the wildly believed truth, to the point where if you disagree with these statements, you are a ccp shill, a genocide sympathizer and brainwashed. For me and a lot of mainland Chinese people I know, we feel our voices and our personal real life experiences are being censored by international media and public discourse. Sometimes I read something about China in the international discourse, it feels its talking about an alternative universe than my real life experience. I have to wonder who is really controlling the narrative, censoring speech and pushing their political agenda.

by yumraj 5y ago

thefounder 5y ago

>> This implies that Xiaomi, and most likely all Chinese phone vendors and by extension CCP, has backdoors in all these devices. They don't need backdoors. They are the "administrator" of your phone just like Apple is on iOS and MacOS or Microsoft on Windows boxes.You are just a guest. It just happens that the chinese admins(aka vendors) don't mind being nasty and clumsy at the same time. All the manufacturers/vendors are controlled by their government(more or less). That being said I don't buy chinese phones or software unless I have no choice but I don't trust Apple to shield my data from various governments either. It's just a matter of lesser evil.

han2432 5y ago
I think you will have a hard time proving beyond speculation that Apple or Microsoft has backdoors to their OS. Would be curious to see any sources though. I actually think that is the difference here, Chinese phones and possibly other devices have backdoors, but Apple/Microsoft likely do not.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I think the parent is being more expansive in what they call a "backdoor", and I tend to agree. Does Apple have the ability to remove an app or some bit of content off your phone (ostensibly to remove malware)? I believe they do? That feels like a backdoor to me. And I assume Google (and/or the phone's manufacturer) has the same ability on Android. No idea about Microsoft on Windows.
  - paxys 5y ago
    Backdoor implies something hidden and not advertised. Apple/Google/Microsoft and others are pretty clear about fully being in control of your device. They can push updates (both at the OS and app level), add new trusted root certificates, collect usage data, show ads, remotely track/lock/disable your device and lots more. Apple is even going to start scanning your phone for certain kinds of illegal content.
- ohazi 5y ago
  > I think you will have a hard time proving beyond speculation that Apple or Microsoft has backdoors to their OS. This statement is absurd -- they don't need to keep a backdoor around because they control the front door. You do realize that controlling how/whether/when core system software updates are pushed to a device is equivalent to having a backdoor, don't you? The operating system on my phone can be 100% backdoor-free today, but if Apple decides that their next update is going to include backdoor, then tomorrow my phone is going to have a backdoor. Basically all consumer phones (save for a few cobbled together exceptions) implicitly accept arbitrary software updates from their upstream vendor.
  - rsync 5y ago
    "Basically all consumer phones (save for a few cobbled together exceptions) implicitly accept arbitrary software updates from their upstream vendor." Actually ... all phones of all kinds explicitly accept arbitrary updates from the carrier in the form of java code that they can upload, and run, on your SIM card. Your SIM card is a full fledged computer with CPU, RAM and storage and your carrier can upload and run arbitrary code on it.
    - ohazi 5y ago
      Yes, this is absolutely also true. However, there are some phones (including several iPhone generations) where the entire baseband/sim subsystem is isolated from the primary application processor and operating system, and essentially appears as something like a dumb USB modem that the OS can control / use / ignore as it pleases. In theory, this would make it difficult for a carrier to issue a baseband update that (for example) hoovers up photos from internal storage. This is the same reason you should prefer a cable modem that's physically separate from your router/wifi/etc. Your cable modem gets firmware updates via DOCSIS from your ISP, and if you have one of those combo boxes, you're essentially letting your ISP onto your internal network.
      - Dah00n 5y ago
        >However, there are some phones (including several iPhone generations) where the entire baseband/sim subsystem is isolated from the primary application processor and operating system Yes, that's what the developer says. Totally unverifiable though unless it is both open source and you built and installed the firmware yourself.. and still there could be hidden firmware running. This is no different than Intel saying we can trust them with the Intel Management Engine.
- david_allison 5y ago
  By the same definition, isn't Windows Update a backdoor: it can remotely enable/disable functionality?
- Dah00n 5y ago
  I don't think you understand what is going on here. What you are saying is that iPhones cannot download data containing a list of things to block (or do whatever with) or that Apple cannot push an update. Xiaomi phones are downloading a JSON file. That has nothing to do with backdoors or remote access. In fact that whole debacle about Apple scanning a device for child pornography works just like it: Download data from a server and do something. If that is a backdoor than 100% of devices that are online are basically backdoored. Functionally this is no different than iOS downloading a list of apps to block.

russli1993 5y ago

But they didn't find anything in Huawei's device or oneplus device. That shows this is not a marching order from the ccp or government to export censorship abroad. If so, then all products with Chinese origin should all have them. What is likely happened here is that xiaomi included code they needed to comply with laws in china in products for aboard, but it is deactivated for in any region other than mainland china. They should have removed the code completely, either have different software builds or don't do anything on the client side to comply with laws in china. Apple complies with Chinese laws fine and I doubt they had to implement any client side changes. I doubt xiaomi and other Chinese company dares to enable censorship anywhere in international markets, or have a secret plan to control world's information discourse to support ccp. Any censorship or apparent support of ccp will be caught within seconds. Its commercial and political suicide. Also if they do have a secret plan, just blacking out whatever people are typing on their phones is such a dumb, stupid, and crude way of implementing censorship. Also, this report found no censorship mechanisms on huawei and oneplus phones. Yet they said people should ditch all Chinese phones, which implies all phones originated from Chinese origin companies have censorship mechanisms. That is a much larger conclusion than what the evidence they provided, seem like a politically motivated desire to discredit and defame all Chinese origin companies and products. I also doubt ccp has a marching order for Chinese companies to censor speech internationally and manipulate world's information discourse. Chinese phones have big market share already, and huawei's gear has wide market share in Europe, but no one ever experienced censorship on their device for speaking against China. And if there is a secret plan to control world's information, they are doing a terrible job at it. The covid origins, xinjiang Uyghurs, Hongkong. The point of view of Chinese side is non existent. For example the xinjiang Uyghur situation, I know people in xinjiang, many of whom are uyghur people, the accusation of mass genocide, 1 million imprisonment, wide spread physical abuse and rapes in prisons, massive internment camps with forced labor is wildly inaccurate from the truth. Yet, it hasn't stopped this from becoming the wildly believed truth, to the point where if you disagree with these statements, you are a ccp shill, a genocide sympathizer and brainwashed. For me and a lot of mainland Chinese people I know, we feel our voices and our personal real life experiences are being censored by international media and public discourse. Sometimes I read something about China in the international discourse, it feels its talking about an alternative universe than my real life experience. I have to wonder who is really controlling the narrative, censoring speech and pushing their political agenda.