3 ms·

Can't speak to aspirin specifically, but I think generically you're pushing a false assumption. It is not easy for the rest of the health industry to provide st

by mwerd 5y ago

Can't speak to aspirin specifically, but I think generically you're pushing a false assumption. It is not easy for the rest of the health industry to provide stable pricing of drugs, especially for the types of rarer drugs that are administered in inpatient care settings. Go click around GoodRx drug prices and tell me how stable even generic drug prices are. There's a post here on HackerNews every 6 months about the outrageous cost of insulin, one of the most commonly prescribed and readily available pharmaceuticals (within a lot of variation depending on patient needs). It's complicated. You're oversimplifying it.

danShumway 5y ago
Then how are Rite Aid and my local 7-11 able to do it? Look, people are pointing me at rare drugs, drugs that don't have generics and that are only available on prescription, people are pointing me at the costs of surgeries and emergency care. I'm really only asking about the absolute simplest part of this equation. Why can't hospitals predictably price the generic over-the-counter non-prescription drugs that I can buy at predictable prices communicated per-purchase in basically every single grocery store in America? Even GoodRx, for all of the variability on different drugs from different sources, is still able to show the price from each source up front. It's able to pull off transparent pricing. If hospitals could do even just that, then we could move on and have a conversation about complexity. But they apparently can't even clear the lowest possible bar. Every single over-the-counter drug in a shopping mart will have a price tag on it when I pick it up. It is clearly possible to reach at least that level of competency. We don't even need to talk about the rare drugs or the complicated procedures. Edit: it occurs to me that you may be focusing on stable, predictable prices over time. To be clear, I'm not even asking for that. I'm asking that at the moment a nurse walks up to me to put an aspirin in my hand, they should be able to tell me what the price is. I'm not asking for standardization across hospitals or static pricing across time, or even consistent pricing across a single visit. I'm asking for the price to be known before the drug is placed in my hand. That is something that pretty much everybody else has figured out how to do, it's the lowest possible bar to clear.
- mwerd 5y ago
  Oh well in that case, you would have to have a totally different conversation about bundled payments. The price (chargemaster) that the hospital might list for all of the a-la-carte care you're provided is totally separate from how they will get paid on it. If you present at the ER and are triaged with stabilizing care, the nurse can't tell you that price because it will depend on your status at discharge, which is not yet known or in her scope of license to determine. If the doctor sees you and sends you home, that's one price (tied to Medicare outpatient prospective payment system or OPPS). Depending on how severe your issue is, the triaging care, such as pain relievers, may or may not be included in the "evaluation and management" procedure coding level you're assigned. There's one of those codes and typically separate bills for both the facility and the attending physician on your visit. If you're admitted to the hospital, what happened in the ER is not really relevant anymore, because now the facility portion of your care will be paid for based on your diagnosis related group (MS-DRG) at discharge, which has no bearing on how many a-la-carte services/drugs you received. Your insurer negotiates payment per DRG (usually as a spread to Medicare) but the hospital, recognizing that they can get screwed and lose a fortune if they have a really complicated case, will probably negotiate a stoploss provision for "outlier claims", saying something like after $750,000 of billed charges, we don't want MS-DRG reimbursement anymore, we want 35% of billed charges. The regulation, primarily driven by Medicare, prevents any of this from being simple enough to communicate at point of care. That doesn't even touch the administrative burden of documenting and collecting on all of that care. If your care wasn't meticulously documented by providers making hundreds an hour to type longform notes, it's essentially free, because no provider will risk billing for care they can't support with documentation. Once insurance pays (or not, they might deny the claim), they will often say "yeah we agreed to pay you x but the patient has 20% coinsurance so here's 80%, you need to talk to him about the rest". The hospital and especially caregivers are not aware of how much of your annual out of pocket max you've spent (thereotically they could check with the insurer, but not realistically in an ER), so maybe you have 20% coinsurance or maybe you don't, only you and the insurance company can realistically know that before the hospital sends the bill. So now that you've glimpsed one hellscape of a reimbursement scenario, which price did you want the nurse to tell you? It's totally insane and it all starts with CMS and the insurers. The hospitals would love to simplify and have menu pricing for your care, run your card, and send you on your way. No insurer would contract to pay that way because it would "incentivize the providers to administer unnecessary care".

by mwerd 5y ago

danShumway 5y ago

Then how are Rite Aid and my local 7-11 able to do it? Look, people are pointing me at rare drugs, drugs that don't have generics and that are only available on prescription, people are pointing me at the costs of surgeries and emergency care. I'm really only asking about the absolute simplest part of this equation. Why can't hospitals predictably price the generic over-the-counter non-prescription drugs that I can buy at predictable prices communicated per-purchase in basically every single grocery store in America? Even GoodRx, for all of the variability on different drugs from different sources, is still able to show the price from each source up front. It's able to pull off transparent pricing. If hospitals could do even just that, then we could move on and have a conversation about complexity. But they apparently can't even clear the lowest possible bar. Every single over-the-counter drug in a shopping mart will have a price tag on it when I pick it up. It is clearly possible to reach at least that level of competency. We don't even need to talk about the rare drugs or the complicated procedures. Edit: it occurs to me that you may be focusing on stable, predictable prices over time. To be clear, I'm not even asking for that. I'm asking that at the moment a nurse walks up to me to put an aspirin in my hand, they should be able to tell me what the price is. I'm not asking for standardization across hospitals or static pricing across time, or even consistent pricing across a single visit. I'm asking for the price to be known before the drug is placed in my hand. That is something that pretty much everybody else has figured out how to do, it's the lowest possible bar to clear.

mwerd 5y ago
Oh well in that case, you would have to have a totally different conversation about bundled payments. The price (chargemaster) that the hospital might list for all of the a-la-carte care you're provided is totally separate from how they will get paid on it. If you present at the ER and are triaged with stabilizing care, the nurse can't tell you that price because it will depend on your status at discharge, which is not yet known or in her scope of license to determine. If the doctor sees you and sends you home, that's one price (tied to Medicare outpatient prospective payment system or OPPS). Depending on how severe your issue is, the triaging care, such as pain relievers, may or may not be included in the "evaluation and management" procedure coding level you're assigned. There's one of those codes and typically separate bills for both the facility and the attending physician on your visit. If you're admitted to the hospital, what happened in the ER is not really relevant anymore, because now the facility portion of your care will be paid for based on your diagnosis related group (MS-DRG) at discharge, which has no bearing on how many a-la-carte services/drugs you received. Your insurer negotiates payment per DRG (usually as a spread to Medicare) but the hospital, recognizing that they can get screwed and lose a fortune if they have a really complicated case, will probably negotiate a stoploss provision for "outlier claims", saying something like after $750,000 of billed charges, we don't want MS-DRG reimbursement anymore, we want 35% of billed charges. The regulation, primarily driven by Medicare, prevents any of this from being simple enough to communicate at point of care. That doesn't even touch the administrative burden of documenting and collecting on all of that care. If your care wasn't meticulously documented by providers making hundreds an hour to type longform notes, it's essentially free, because no provider will risk billing for care they can't support with documentation. Once insurance pays (or not, they might deny the claim), they will often say "yeah we agreed to pay you x but the patient has 20% coinsurance so here's 80%, you need to talk to him about the rest". The hospital and especially caregivers are not aware of how much of your annual out of pocket max you've spent (thereotically they could check with the insurer, but not realistically in an ER), so maybe you have 20% coinsurance or maybe you don't, only you and the insurance company can realistically know that before the hospital sends the bill. So now that you've glimpsed one hellscape of a reimbursement scenario, which price did you want the nurse to tell you? It's totally insane and it all starts with CMS and the insurers. The hospitals would love to simplify and have menu pricing for your care, run your card, and send you on your way. No insurer would contract to pay that way because it would "incentivize the providers to administer unnecessary care".