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"'Next/Apple' isn't a quick playbook - it's an over 30 year R&D effort to create a hugely complex software and hardware business, and it spent about $100 billio

by rsync 5y ago

"'Next/Apple' isn't a quick playbook - it's an over 30 year R&D effort to create a hugely complex software and hardware business, and it spent about $100 billion in R&D to get its products where they are today ..." But isn't this much, much easier if you just piggyback on the Apple hardware ? I always expected this to happen. Circa 2008 or 2009 I thought that any day now there would be a linux distribution built specifically foe one single Apple laptop. No hardware issues, no gremlins, no moving targets - you would have a (very) fixed hardware target and optimize just for that. Then I, as a user, could just go to the Apple store and buy a nice shiny device and install MBAlinux on it and call it a day. I really don't understand why this never happened. Further, in many ways it seems that the opposite of this happened - installing linux/FreeBSD is weirdly painful on Apple laptops which is unexpected since we all know what is inside of them and the installed base is huge. So I would suggest that you could, indeed, build a hardware/software ecosystem - just let Apple build the hardware part ...

Closi 5y ago
> But isn't this much, much easier if you just piggyback on the Apple hardware ? Sure, it's easier, but then I'm not sure what the point is or what makes it one of the biggest opportunities of our time. I also understand why it never happened - there is already a unix-based OS which is designed with perfect compatibility with the Apple Hardware called OSX! I'm not sure what the advantage to a consumer would be for replacing OSX with linux - other than the fact that it gives consumers choice - but of course providing a distro that only operates on a specific Mac is then limiting hardware choice so it doesn't really solve that in some respects. And if it's just for developers, then wouldn't developers want some choice of hardware, good support for tooling, the ability to test native apps without virtualisation e.t.c. IMO I suspect the Venn-diagram of developers who: * want a Mac but don't want OSX * don't mind that they can't upgrade their hardware * are willing to run some totally-new operating system * Accept that it will initially lack the support of the runtimes they use, and some software, and won't be able to develop certain types of software because of this. * Accept that if they wish to continue using the OS for their next laptop they will be fully locked-in to a single hardware model. is pretty vanishingly small.
nebula8804 5y ago
Linux is a complete mess that may likely never get fixed. The problem is people. It is a representation of democracy: a messy combination of half-arsed solutions that forms a workable cohesive. This is not a valid competitor to the Mac. It is a compromise. Lets take Ubuntu as an example. Today you can get Ubuntu laptops that will work out of the box. Is that true tomorrow? Absolutely not. The next distro version will break something in the hardware. I have been burned by this twice now. At then end of the day the Apple premium is not really a premium. It ensures that they continue to support their legacy hardware for years. The people who bash the premium as some sort of "idiot tax" are actually valuing the software that runs on the machine at 0$. There are too many people in this world that don't understand how much effort it takes to create and maintain good reliable software. You see it on the app store where people can't fathom spending 99 cents and you see it in the bashing of Apple devices. Lets assume that your hardware works beautifully with the current version. Then you actually look at the apps shipped with the distro. They are poorly made and do not form a cohesive OS. You are forced to hunt for other open source equivalents to basic stuff like "paint". Have you tried using the calculator or notepad equivalents? They suck compared the simple and easy to use Windows and Mac equivalents. This is something even Windows gets right. It comes from the fact that Canonical does not have the resources to build each app around a unified design and UX principle so they farm it out to the "open source community". Finally, why do each distro version seem to break something on the same hardware year after year? There seems to be a serious lack of regression testing on these distros. For 10+ years I have witnessed how one version of Ubuntu breaks some stuff, fixes others and then the next version fixes some stuff but breaks previous working items. Then it gets worse, the subsequent version breaks previously fixed stuff again! I am forced to QA the entire OS every time a new release comes out and hope I don't miss something(which I always do)!
- zibzab 5y ago
  You know what is a compromise? Running Docker at 1/4 of its native speed inside a VM.
  - bengale 5y ago
    My solution for this is a headless Linux box under my desk and remote vscode and ssh from my MacBook. Best of both worlds so far for me. I did try and use Linux full time but the UI drove me up the wall so I’m back comfortable in macOS but my dev work flies on that Linux box.
canadaduane 5y ago
I like the idea, but I worry that Apple's m.o. is to allow something like this in the margins and then cut it off at the knees if it becomes too successful. Whether by altering their hardware, using security lock-out (à la iPhone), or replicating it without acknowledging where it came from.
jay_kyburz 5y ago
Steam Deck (For Games) I only ever need a laptop when traveling, I have a big desktop setup at home. I plan to take my Steam Deck traveling with a portable monitor and keyboard.
Decade 5y ago
In short, Apple does things in non-standard ways without explaining how to get another OS to work. Apple doesn’t prioritize lack of binary blobs. The EFI firmware is all proprietary. All their Wi-Fi have been switched to Broadcom. They do weird non-standard things to the Thunderbolt controller, e.g., you have to lie to the firmware and claim to be macOS in order for it not to disable the Thunderbolt controller. Newer MacBooks hide a bunch of hardware behind the proprietary T2, and whatever embedded OS runs the Touch Bar. MacBooks are not ideologically pure, and sunk efforts to get an OS working on other machines are often wasted on MacBooks because Apple does things in bizarrely different ways.
journey_16162 5y ago
> But isn't this much, much easier if you just piggyback on the Apple hardware ? Would that be even legal? I mean selling a commercial OS that would be marketed to install as a replacement OS on the most locked, most proprietary hardware on the market?

by rsync 5y ago

Closi 5y ago

> But isn't this much, much easier if you just piggyback on the Apple hardware ? Sure, it's easier, but then I'm not sure what the point is or what makes it one of the biggest opportunities of our time. I also understand why it never happened - there is already a unix-based OS which is designed with perfect compatibility with the Apple Hardware called OSX! I'm not sure what the advantage to a consumer would be for replacing OSX with linux - other than the fact that it gives consumers choice - but of course providing a distro that only operates on a specific Mac is then limiting hardware choice so it doesn't really solve that in some respects. And if it's just for developers, then wouldn't developers want some choice of hardware, good support for tooling, the ability to test native apps without virtualisation e.t.c. IMO I suspect the Venn-diagram of developers who: * want a Mac but don't want OSX * don't mind that they can't upgrade their hardware * are willing to run some totally-new operating system * Accept that it will initially lack the support of the runtimes they use, and some software, and won't be able to develop certain types of software because of this. * Accept that if they wish to continue using the OS for their next laptop they will be fully locked-in to a single hardware model. is pretty vanishingly small.

nebula8804 5y ago

Linux is a complete mess that may likely never get fixed. The problem is people. It is a representation of democracy: a messy combination of half-arsed solutions that forms a workable cohesive. This is not a valid competitor to the Mac. It is a compromise. Lets take Ubuntu as an example. Today you can get Ubuntu laptops that will work out of the box. Is that true tomorrow? Absolutely not. The next distro version will break something in the hardware. I have been burned by this twice now. At then end of the day the Apple premium is not really a premium. It ensures that they continue to support their legacy hardware for years. The people who bash the premium as some sort of "idiot tax" are actually valuing the software that runs on the machine at 0$. There are too many people in this world that don't understand how much effort it takes to create and maintain good reliable software. You see it on the app store where people can't fathom spending 99 cents and you see it in the bashing of Apple devices. Lets assume that your hardware works beautifully with the current version. Then you actually look at the apps shipped with the distro. They are poorly made and do not form a cohesive OS. You are forced to hunt for other open source equivalents to basic stuff like "paint". Have you tried using the calculator or notepad equivalents? They suck compared the simple and easy to use Windows and Mac equivalents. This is something even Windows gets right. It comes from the fact that Canonical does not have the resources to build each app around a unified design and UX principle so they farm it out to the "open source community". Finally, why do each distro version seem to break something on the same hardware year after year? There seems to be a serious lack of regression testing on these distros. For 10+ years I have witnessed how one version of Ubuntu breaks some stuff, fixes others and then the next version fixes some stuff but breaks previous working items. Then it gets worse, the subsequent version breaks previously fixed stuff again! I am forced to QA the entire OS every time a new release comes out and hope I don't miss something(which I always do)!

zibzab 5y ago
You know what is a compromise? Running Docker at 1/4 of its native speed inside a VM.
- bengale 5y ago
  My solution for this is a headless Linux box under my desk and remote vscode and ssh from my MacBook. Best of both worlds so far for me. I did try and use Linux full time but the UI drove me up the wall so I’m back comfortable in macOS but my dev work flies on that Linux box.

canadaduane 5y ago

I like the idea, but I worry that Apple's m.o. is to allow something like this in the margins and then cut it off at the knees if it becomes too successful. Whether by altering their hardware, using security lock-out (à la iPhone), or replicating it without acknowledging where it came from.

jay_kyburz 5y ago

Steam Deck (For Games) I only ever need a laptop when traveling, I have a big desktop setup at home. I plan to take my Steam Deck traveling with a portable monitor and keyboard.

Decade 5y ago

In short, Apple does things in non-standard ways without explaining how to get another OS to work. Apple doesn’t prioritize lack of binary blobs. The EFI firmware is all proprietary. All their Wi-Fi have been switched to Broadcom. They do weird non-standard things to the Thunderbolt controller, e.g., you have to lie to the firmware and claim to be macOS in order for it not to disable the Thunderbolt controller. Newer MacBooks hide a bunch of hardware behind the proprietary T2, and whatever embedded OS runs the Touch Bar. MacBooks are not ideologically pure, and sunk efforts to get an OS working on other machines are often wasted on MacBooks because Apple does things in bizarrely different ways.

journey_16162 5y ago

> But isn't this much, much easier if you just piggyback on the Apple hardware ? Would that be even legal? I mean selling a commercial OS that would be marketed to install as a replacement OS on the most locked, most proprietary hardware on the market?