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Besides criminals, even legitimate businesses might start to prefer offline methods. With the decline of privacy comes corporate espionage and that's no good fo

Besides criminals, even legitimate businesses might start to prefer offline methods. With the decline of privacy comes corporate espionage and that's no good for business.

kube-system 5y ago
Legitimate businesses can much more easily avoid being scammed by vendors because their legitimate businesses are protected by the legal system. They also can openly discuss their experiences with vendors, because they're not hiding from anyone.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  How's that working out for victims of ransomware attacks or nation-state corporate espionage?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    I've never heard of a business being scammed by a vendor through ransomware. When businesses choose vendors, they do it with legal contracts enforceable in their jurisdictions.
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      Vendor-based scams are not the entirety of the threat model.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        Vendor-based scams are what this thread and this article is about. The root quoted that An0m was a 'trick' that couldn't be repeated again. My point is that legitimate businesses would have never had to worry about such tricks, being scammed by a vendor like this is a problem unique to illegal businesses.
        dredmorbius 5y ago
        OK, I see what you're saying. Though I think there are actually at least two discussions being had here, apparently talking past one another: One, that a vendor which promises some service but fails to deliver on it, as An0m did here, would be subject to civil claims for fraud or false representation. This seems to be your general argument. Another is that any given business has concerns over surveillance and privac breaches, whether from law enforcement or other entities, and that any use of digial communictations and data systems exposes them to this risk. Paper-based systems have, of course, far lower capabiliies to data processing, but also to data exfiltration*. Both are risks. You're focused on one. Others take a broader view, myself included.
        kube-system 5y ago
        That's fair. But I still don't think the situation translates; businesses have significantly more options for mitigation and less downside risk. They're likely not going to prison if they have a data leak, and they have access to good information and the world's most reputable vendors for solutions to those problems. Outside of exceptionally high risk (or exceptionally low revenue) businesses , I don't think many are going to choose to go back to paper. Although, we may see more systems being air-gapped, virtualized, or using other forms of isolation. The types of enterprises that could afford the labor cost of using paper can also afford the price tag on digital solutions that do a good job of mitigating those risks. Most breaches, ransomware attacks, etc are things that could have been prevented. Rarely do incident response crews say "this company couldn't have done anything to prevent this" Additionally, legitimate businesses have customers that will demand that they use digital solutions. Criminals dealing with other criminals might be willing to use paper to mitigate risks. Customers of established B2B or B2C companies will not.

Besides criminals, even legitimate businesses might start to prefer offline methods. With the decline of privacy comes corporate espionage and that's no good for business.

kube-system 5y ago

Legitimate businesses can much more easily avoid being scammed by vendors because their legitimate businesses are protected by the legal system. They also can openly discuss their experiences with vendors, because they're not hiding from anyone.

dredmorbius 5y ago
How's that working out for victims of ransomware attacks or nation-state corporate espionage?
- kube-system 5y ago
  I've never heard of a business being scammed by a vendor through ransomware. When businesses choose vendors, they do it with legal contracts enforceable in their jurisdictions.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    Vendor-based scams are not the entirety of the threat model.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      Vendor-based scams are what this thread and this article is about. The root quoted that An0m was a 'trick' that couldn't be repeated again. My point is that legitimate businesses would have never had to worry about such tricks, being scammed by a vendor like this is a problem unique to illegal businesses.
      - dredmorbius 5y ago
        OK, I see what you're saying. Though I think there are actually at least two discussions being had here, apparently talking past one another: One, that a vendor which promises some service but fails to deliver on it, as An0m did here, would be subject to civil claims for fraud or false representation. This seems to be your general argument. Another is that any given business has concerns over surveillance and privac breaches, whether from law enforcement or other entities, and that any use of digial communictations and data systems exposes them to this risk. Paper-based systems have, of course, far lower capabiliies to data processing, but also to data exfiltration*. Both are risks. You're focused on one. Others take a broader view, myself included.
        kube-system 5y ago
        That's fair. But I still don't think the situation translates; businesses have significantly more options for mitigation and less downside risk. They're likely not going to prison if they have a data leak, and they have access to good information and the world's most reputable vendors for solutions to those problems. Outside of exceptionally high risk (or exceptionally low revenue) businesses , I don't think many are going to choose to go back to paper. Although, we may see more systems being air-gapped, virtualized, or using other forms of isolation. The types of enterprises that could afford the labor cost of using paper can also afford the price tag on digital solutions that do a good job of mitigating those risks. Most breaches, ransomware attacks, etc are things that could have been prevented. Rarely do incident response crews say "this company couldn't have done anything to prevent this" Additionally, legitimate businesses have customers that will demand that they use digital solutions. Criminals dealing with other criminals might be willing to use paper to mitigate risks. Customers of established B2B or B2C companies will not.